Cruel Logic

[Kenny]

Ken: I completely understand another person's personal revelation convincing them, but obviously it isn't going to convince me.

NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!

That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.

Ken

Not if you learn Spanish.

But until I learn spanish, you should speak to me in a language that I can understand. Do you agree?

Kemn

[RickD]

Ken: I completely understand another person's personal revelation convincing them, but obviously it isn't going to convince me.

NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!

That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.

Ken

Not if you learn Spanish.

But until I learn spanish, you should speak to me in a language that I can understand. Do you agree?

Kemn

Kemn? Who's Kemn?

[Storyteller]

Ken: I completely understand another person's personal revelation convincing them, but obviously it isn't going to convince me.

NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!

That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.

Ken

Not if you learn Spanish.

But until I learn spanish, you should speak to me in a language that I can understand. Do you agree?

Kemn

Si

Ken? God is real.
Christ is real.
Doubt by all means. Doubt is the twin brother of faith.

You gave up.
God is there but you gotta reach out too, for as long as it takes.

[Storyteller]

NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!

That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.

Ken

Not if you learn Spanish.

But until I learn spanish, you should speak to me in a language that I can understand. Do you agree?

Kemn

Kemn? Who's Kemn?

The guy who bought my kvindle?

[Kenny]

NOTHING will convince a person so determined to resist whatever God might show them!

That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.

Ken

Not if you learn Spanish.

But until I learn spanish, you should speak to me in a language that I can understand. Do you agree?

Kemn

Si

Ken? God is real.
Christ is real.
Doubt by all means. Doubt is the twin brother of faith.

You gave up.
God is there but you gotta reach out too, for as long as it takes.

I appreciate your candor and good intentions; Thank-you

Ken

[RickD]

That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.

Ken

Not if you learn Spanish.

But until I learn spanish, you should speak to me in a language that I can understand. Do you agree?

Kemn

Si

Ken? God is real.
Christ is real.
Doubt by all means. Doubt is the twin brother of faith.

You gave up.
God is there but you gotta reach out too, for as long as it takes.

I appreciate your candor and good intentions; Thank-you

Ken

Annette,

Check to see if your pockets are wet.

[Storyteller]

That goes both ways ya know! How convinced would you be of someone else's personal revelation? And why reveal to someone else, and expect me to take their word for it when it could be just as easily revealed to me? If something is to be revealed to me, it has to be done in a way I recognize; otherwise it is about as useful as speaking spanish to a person who only speaks English.

Ken

Not if you learn Spanish.

But until I learn spanish, you should speak to me in a language that I can understand. Do you agree?

Kemn

Si

Ken? God is real.
Christ is real.
Doubt by all means. Doubt is the twin brother of faith.

You gave up.
God is there but you gotta reach out too, for as long as it takes.

I appreciate your candor and good intentions; Thank-you

Ken

My pleasure

You know I like debating with you. We have had some interesting discussions even if we dont agree.

You dont need all the answers first Ken. Thats why its a leap of faith. Jump. Then start looking for and demanding answers.

Maybe if you take that leap you'll find Him.

[Nessa]

Not if you learn Spanish.

But until I learn spanish, you should speak to me in a language that I can understand. Do you agree?

Kemn

Si

Ken? God is real.
Christ is real.
Doubt by all means. Doubt is the twin brother of faith.

You gave up.
God is there but you gotta reach out too, for as long as it takes.

I appreciate your candor and good intentions; Thank-you

Ken

Annette,

Check to see if your pockets are wet.

[Kurieuo]

I'm not sure I understand so looked up "wet pockets"...
Maybe I'm more naive than I thought. Can anyone guess what I found?

[Nessa]

I'm not sure I understand so looked up "wet pockets"...
Maybe I'm more naive than I thought. Can anyone guess what I found?

Is that another one of your australian phrases?

[B. W.]

+

Kenny, let me sum up where I was going with one question: Where did your values and morals come from - the ability to reason?

As for selfish, yes, you made a very selfish statement that your morals and values only concern you and no others.

Guillaume Bignon, a former atheist — delivered this message after the French Terrorist attack which answers your response about a gold plated heart...

“The only option for French atheists (among whose ranks I used to count myself), is to maintain that there isn’t really any such thing as evil. When one denies the existence of God as a transcendent creator of the universe who ordains how humans ought to live their lives, one is left only with conflicting opinions about what individuals like and dislike.”

“If there is no God then there is no objective truth about the good and the bad.”

“To be a consistent atheist one must affirm that the Islamic terrorists in Paris didn’t do anything ‘wrong’, as such. They only acted out of line with our personal preferences, (and in line with theirs). If there’s no ultimate arbiter of right and wrong, that’s all we are left with.”

“Maybe that way of reasoning about good and evil strikes you as crazy. ‘Of course the terrorists were wrong and their acts were evil’ the atheist says. I agree, which is why I think the reality of the evil we just witnessed makes atheism so implausible.”

+++++

You cannot agree that existence has no value and then say it does have value because you says it does.

In fact,Kenny, you don’t agree existence itself has value then how could it have value just because you says it does? The law of non-contradiction is at work here disproving you.

Just because something exist doesn't mean it has value; the value comes when someone values it. If something exists and nobody is aware of its existence, it has no value because nobody will value it. If I say something has value, I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself.

That is called selfishness to the extreme, Kenny, glad you can at least admit this.

Why do you consider it selfish?

Once you die - poof you are gone and the mathematics involved in determining the odds of a very large comet slamming into earth at some point in the future is good. So poof - not matter what you say, in fact, has no value either.

With such line of reasoning the terrorist attacks in France 3 days ago, the Terrorist values killing innocent life. So do they have value because they say so? According to your idea and comments, the answer is yes. But even you know intuit - that what these beast did is wrong and has no value.

Those terrorists probably spent thousands of dollars to accomplish what they did. Obviously those acts had value to them, otherwise they wouldn't have spent the money. Remember; just because something has value doesn't mean it is good.

How does your statement, just because something has value doesn't mean it is good fit your,I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself fit here?

Cocaine has value even though I consider it bad.

When I was 10 years old I had a crush on this girl and she had one on me. I was unable to tell my family about her because her skin was the wrong color and nobody would approve. There came a time when my family was going to move to far away, and when I told her she gave me a small gold plated heart that was split down the middle and she gave half to me and kept the other half herself. Today I still have that gold plated heart. It is very valuable to me, but to anyone else it is worthless.

How do you determine if your values are good or bad? How sure are you about what you value - why?

Just to keep things clear, “values” in reference to morality is different from “value” in reference to the cost of a thing.
As far as moral value, if you look at it from my perspective, morals, values, good, and bad, are just labels we attach to human behaviors and character. I believe I’ve already discussed my interpretation of morality with you; if you want me to go over it again I will.

Now if there is no afterlife to hold one to account then all terrorist have gotten away with it and thus absolute human debauchery should be the normal for humanity because nothing matters - that my friend is what your life's philosophy produces, self-evident in the times in which we live.

Society finds it important to enforce laws that punish such behavior BEFORE they die. We aren't in the business of throwing our hands up and saying "Let' em do what they want now and let God punish them after they die" NO! for those who believe in God they will say; "God can punish them after they die, but we gonna get to them first"!

In the OT, God sent forth the ability to enact justice upon murders by taking their life. So where did this ability to enact justice within a society come from?

I suspect human nature

Life has value because God is the one who gave it as a gift to humanity so we can be the caretakers of His property exercising dominion (rule) governing by love, justice, mercy. However, the evidence that we fell away from this of our own free moral will is self evident too. God gave gifts to humanity and he does not renege on these despite our abuse and blaming him for giving us responsibility to stop it.

The militant agnostic and atheist would be the first to agree that being made an automaton would not be just as it denies liberty of reason and thought, yet, they demand that if there was a just God, God should have made humanity automatons.

Actually if the option were to live as an automaton for 80 or so years or whatever time I spend on earth; and have a guaranteed ticket to an eternal heaven upon death, or be given freewill for the 80 years and take a chance of making mistakes that lead to an eternal hell, I would choose the life of an automaton with the guaranteed ticket to heaven any day. What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?

Then that would prove God is absolutely unjust and design in accordance to fear as well as would mean that He is not all powerful either.

Why would my preferences prove anything about God?

hmmm so here is a question to you Ken: would you prefer to live under an Islamic state or a western state influenced by Christians who govern by grace?
-
-
-

You are asking me if I would prefer to live under Sharia law as apposed to how I live now? What have I said that would give you the impression I might wanna live under Sharia law?

Ken

Because you may value it...
-
-
-

[RickD]

I'm not sure I understand so looked up "wet pockets"...
Maybe I'm more naive than I thought. Can anyone guess what I found?

You should understand. It's Australian.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/piss_i ... 27s_pocket

[Kurieuo]

I'm not sure I understand so looked up "wet pockets"...
Maybe I'm more naive than I thought. Can anyone guess what I found?

You should understand. It's Australian.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/piss_i ... 27s_pocket

Oh, I think that's more in southern states. They have strange habits.

[RickD]

I'm not sure I understand so looked up "wet pockets"...
Maybe I'm more naive than I thought. Can anyone guess what I found?

You should understand. It's Australian.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/piss_i ... 27s_pocket

Oh, I think that's more in southern states. They have strange habits.

Mel? What say you, miss pissypants?

[Kenny]

+

Kenny, let me sum up where I was going with one question: Where did your values and morals come from - the ability to reason?

I don’t know enough about the evolution of mankind to give an adequate answer, so let me put it this way; whatever it is that allows people to think to the level that we do, that level of thinking is where my values, morals, and ability to reason come from

As for selfish, yes, you made a very selfish statement that your morals and values only concern you and no others.

Perhaps you should read what I actually said again. I was very clear about the difference between monetary value I place on things/property, and moral values that I attach to behavior.

Guillaume Bignon, a former atheist — delivered this message after the French Terrorist attack which answers your response about a gold plated heart...

“The only option for French atheists (among whose ranks I used to count myself), is to maintain that there isn’t really any such thing as evil. When one denies the existence of God as a transcendent creator of the universe who ordains how humans ought to live their lives, one is left only with conflicting opinions about what individuals like and dislike.”

“If there is no God then there is no objective truth about the good and the bad.”

“To be a consistent atheist one must affirm that the Islamic terrorists in Paris didn’t do anything ‘wrong’, as such. They only acted out of line with our personal preferences, (and in line with theirs). If there’s no ultimate arbiter of right and wrong, that’s all we are left with.”

“Maybe that way of reasoning about good and evil strikes you as crazy. ‘Of course the terrorists were wrong and their acts were evil’ the atheist says. I agree, which is why I think the reality of the evil we just witnessed makes atheism so implausible.”

What does any of this have to do with the sentimental value I have towards the gold plated heart?

+++++

You cannot agree that existence has no value and then say it does have value because you says it does.

In fact,Kenny, you don’t agree existence itself has value then how could it have value just because you says it does? The law of non-contradiction is at work here disproving you.

Just because something exist doesn't mean it has value; the value comes when someone values it. If something exists and nobody is aware of its existence, it has no value because nobody will value it. If I say something has value, I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself.

That is called selfishness to the extreme, Kenny, glad you can at least admit this.

Why do you consider it selfish?

Once you die - poof you are gone and the mathematics involved in determining the odds of a very large comet slamming into earth at some point in the future is good. So poof - not matter what you say, in fact, has no value either.

With such line of reasoning the terrorist attacks in France 3 days ago, the Terrorist values killing innocent life. So do they have value because they say so? According to your idea and comments, the answer is yes. But even you know intuit - that what these beast did is wrong and has no value.

Those terrorists probably spent thousands of dollars to accomplish what they did. Obviously those acts had value to them, otherwise they wouldn't have spent the money. Remember; just because something has value doesn't mean it is good.

How does your statement, just because something has value doesn't mean it is good fit your,I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself fit here?

Cocaine has value even though I consider it bad.

When I was 10 years old I had a crush on this girl and she had one on me. I was unable to tell my family about her because her skin was the wrong color and nobody would approve. There came a time when my family was going to move to far away, and when I told her she gave me a small gold plated heart that was split down the middle and she gave half to me and kept the other half herself. Today I still have that gold plated heart. It is very valuable to me, but to anyone else it is worthless.

How do you determine if your values are good or bad? How sure are you about what you value - why?

Just to keep things clear, “values” in reference to morality is different from “value” in reference to the cost of a thing.
As far as moral value, if you look at it from my perspective, morals, values, good, and bad, are just labels we attach to human behaviors and character. I believe I’ve already discussed my interpretation of morality with you; if you want me to go over it again I will.

Now if there is no afterlife to hold one to account then all terrorist have gotten away with it and thus absolute human debauchery should be the normal for humanity because nothing matters - that my friend is what your life's philosophy produces, self-evident in the times in which we live.

Society finds it important to enforce laws that punish such behavior BEFORE they die. We aren't in the business of throwing our hands up and saying "Let' em do what they want now and let God punish them after they die" NO! for those who believe in God they will say; "God can punish them after they die, but we gonna get to them first"!

In the OT, God sent forth the ability to enact justice upon murders by taking their life. So where did this ability to enact justice within a society come from?

I suspect human nature

Life has value because God is the one who gave it as a gift to humanity so we can be the caretakers of His property exercising dominion (rule) governing by love, justice, mercy. However, the evidence that we fell away from this of our own free moral will is self evident too. God gave gifts to humanity and he does not renege on these despite our abuse and blaming him for giving us responsibility to stop it.

The militant agnostic and atheist would be the first to agree that being made an automaton would not be just as it denies liberty of reason and thought, yet, they demand that if there was a just God, God should have made humanity automatons.

Actually if the option were to live as an automaton for 80 or so years or whatever time I spend on earth; and have a guaranteed ticket to an eternal heaven upon death, or be given freewill for the 80 years and take a chance of making mistakes that lead to an eternal hell, I would choose the life of an automaton with the guaranteed ticket to heaven any day. What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?

Then that would prove God is absolutely unjust and design in accordance to fear as well as would mean that He is not all powerful either.

Why would my preferences prove anything about God?

hmmm so here is a question to you Ken: would you prefer to live under an Islamic state or a western state influenced by Christians who govern by grace?
-
-
-

You are asking me if I would prefer to live under Sharia law as apposed to how I live now? What have I said that would give you the impression I might wanna live under Sharia law?

Ken

Because you may value it...

What did I say that gave you the impression I might value living under Sharia law?-


Ken