Is it theologically sound to suggest the Father and Spirit may take on a physical nature like the Son in Heaven?

[melanie]

....Rick I don't feel I need to defend a poorly established religious doctrine.
For the most part being, there is nothing to defend!!

I'm not upholding or defending scripture but rather religious indoctrination.

Show me scripturally what needs to be established then we can go from there.

Hi Mel, even if I show you - would you still perceive or is you mind set up in staunch unlistening resistance due to learned prejudice?

These verses speak of the Holy Spirit in terms of the Christian Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity:


Isa 63:10-11 NASB, "But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. 11 Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them..."

Notice that a force or power cannot be grieved because a force or power is impersonal and thus cannot be grieved. Notice that HE (God-YHWH) will put whom into folks - the language/Hebrew grammar structure is very clear.

Next, Isa 48:16 NASB, "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit."

Notice adoni YHWH and HIS Spirit sent - what do you see?

Other verses:

Isaiah 61:1

Genesis 1:2 the Spirit of God is indicated

Isaiah 40:13

Isaiah speaks of the Holy Spirit in what tense in Isa 34:16 NASB?

Isaiah 32:15

Numbers 11:25

Ezekiel 36:27 and Ezekiel 37:1

Micah 2:7 and Micah 3:8

Zechariah 4:6

These verses identify the role or personality of the Holy Spirit as empowering, establishing, sealing, things...

Suggest you look over the Old Testament Concept of God thread I posted for this forum and here is a post from Page Seven...

Haven't wrote more for this thread but the recent comments on another caused me to realize that I should post a simple example on comprehending the Trinity of God's Nature.

God is one, yet three, well this confuses people. Is there an example that help our human minds wrap around this?

Romans 1:20 mentions that there are things on earth clearly seen that give evidence for God's Tri-natured oneness, after all, God mentions from the scriptures there is none like him and his oneness is like no other.

So for the record, I am posting my orange example so folks who read this thread will gain insight and some understanding from earth's nature what Romans 1:20 mentions about God's creation help reveal God's nature.

Example of the Orange

Take a Navel Orange. Cut it in half, take one half and peal it, take its fruit out, with the other squeeze the juice into into a clear glass. hat do you see?

The peel, fruit, and juice is all 100 percent orange, yet, differing personalities of fruit are contained in that oneness of an Navel Orange. The peeling holds all together, provides protection, and energy. Likewise the fruit, creates seed, provides protection and nourishes the seed to grow, and shares the same energy within the juice and peel. The Juice likewise provides protection,nourishment, and energy to the whole orange. The three are in reality are one and the same, yet, each has is own personality/function.

Using this example, the peel represents the Father, the fruit the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the Juice. Each have the same essence of wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc yet different personalities according to functioning of wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc to nourish and keep life alive.

The Father is the source of all wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc to keep life alive. The Son carries out and does the works wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc that makes growth. The Holy Spirit, empowers the wisdom, knowledge, understanding, power, etc that provides health in growth, etc.

We all need Orange juice... does the body good

Nothing like a slice of orange and all the nutrients!

The peel adds a little zest to flavor life as well as sweetens chocolate too!

Have a Blessed day All

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B.W said

woukd you still perceive or is you mind set up in staunch unlistening resistance due to learned prejudice

Learned prejudice??
From whom exactly?
Is that not somewhat the pot calling the kettle black!
Having been drilled into the essence of Christianity that one must believe in the trinity or else.
No questions asked.
This tango of scripture that is so ambiguous that even those that penned the trinity admitted it was a mystery and impossible to understand.
But you better believe.

I don't believe in the trinity as it stands. Although I do believe in The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I'm not going to pretend otherwise,
I don't flaunt it in anyone's face, or on the forum but when it comes up in threads I will address it.
I will do so Honestly and I won't be intimidated to not do so.

That was entirely my point.
This assertion of "learned predujiced" like I believe this due to some indoctrination is baloney.
I don't believe it, because I don't think it's right
NO ONE told me that, I workd it out all on my own.
Fancy that!

[RickD]

Mel,

Here is a basic overview of the doctrine of the Trinity.
https://carm.org/trinity

Maybe you could tell us where you disagree.

[B. W.]

Learned prejudice??
From whom exactly?
Is that not somewhat the pot calling the kettle black!
Having been drilled into the essence of Christianity that one must believe in the trinity or else.
No questions asked.
This tango of scripture that is so ambiguous that even those that penned the trinity admitted it was a mystery and impossible to understand.
But you better believe.

I don't believe in the trinity as it stands. Although I do believe in The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I'm not going to pretend otherwise,
I don't flaunt it in anyone's face, or on the forum but when it comes up in threads I will address it.
I will do so Honestly and I won't be intimidated to not do so.

That was entirely my point.
This assertion of "learned predujiced" like I believe this due to some indoctrination is baloney.
I don't believe it, because I don't think it's right
NO ONE told me that, I workd it out all on my own.
Fancy that!

Hmmm love ya mel, but you appear to be very prejudice against what the bible actually teaches and describes who the Holy Spirit is.

So I suggest you look over all the verses I cited and prove them wrong... grammatically from the Hebrew and Greek text these are found in just as I have done in the OT Concept of God thread.

You appear to me to be proud about being a non-conformist and not taking any BS from anyone concerning the bible.

In a way that is a admirable trait but also a isolating one too. I take that at the root of it all, you, like myself and just about everyone on the forum has been hurt by Christians in churches in some manner. Maybe that has something to do with your not being convinced about the Holy Spirit and how God reveals himself truthfully to humanity in his one triune being so we can gaze upon him and live.

Remember YHWH says that there is none like Him and his oneness is unlike our concept of oneness as well because our concept of oneness reduces God into an image in the mind that slowly becomes more idol than image.


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[melanie]

Rick now we get into the semantics,
I totally get the three in one idea.
What I don't agree with is that the HS has a personage.
In the heavily realm God is at the throne. Jesus at the right and the HS, somewhere up there in unison in the Godhead.
I believe the HS is God and Jesus, it is the manifestation of their omnipresence, and of their glory.
Just to make it clear I believe when we go to heaven, there is the Father and Son. But not another dude getting around called the HS in a spiritual sense or physical sense, tied in unison with the Godhead.
The HS is the Father and Son. It is their will and their presence in believers.
Not someone we personally meet when we go the pearly gates.
Interesting in all NDE there are many accounts of the Father and Jesus but no one coming in contact with the HS.
Nowhere in scripture are we told of the HS kingdomly reign. Although there are repeated verses of the Father and Sons thronely glory.
And of the earthly kingdom to come.

[Mallz]

OK, honestly I think there is too much heat that was going on between M n R. And both were equally wrong in going about 'getting to the point' with each other. Equally.. That said.. I'd actually like to know what Melanie thinks. Because I have a feeling there might be something more to this than just misunderstanding. That being said, the only thing I don't really know, and would really like to, is what Melanie's understanding is. In as complete (as long as it takes) a description as you can express.

[melanie]

Learned prejudice??
From whom exactly?
Is that not somewhat the pot calling the kettle black!
Having been drilled into the essence of Christianity that one must believe in the trinity or else.
No questions asked.
This tango of scripture that is so ambiguous that even those that penned the trinity admitted it was a mystery and impossible to understand.
But you better believe.

I don't believe in the trinity as it stands. Although I do believe in The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I'm not going to pretend otherwise,
I don't flaunt it in anyone's face, or on the forum but when it comes up in threads I will address it.
I will do so Honestly and I won't be intimidated to not do so.

That was entirely my point.
This assertion of "learned predujiced" like I believe this due to some indoctrination is baloney.
I don't believe it, because I don't think it's right
NO ONE told me that, I workd it out all on my own.
Fancy that!

Hmmm love ya mel, but you appear to be very prejudice against what the bible actually teaches and describes who the Holy Spirit is.

So I suggest you look over all the verses I cited and prove them wrong... grammatically from the Hebrew and Greek text these are found in just as I have done in the OT Concept of God thread.

You appear to me to be proud about being a non-conformist and not taking any BS from anyone concerning the bible.

In a way that is a admirable trait but also a isolating one too. I take that at the root of it all, you, like myself and just about everyone on the forum has been hurt by Christians in churches in some manner. Maybe that has something to do with your not being convinced about the Holy Spirit and how God reveals himself truthfully to humanity in his one triune being so we can gaze upon him and live.

Remember YHWH says that there is none like Him and his oneness is unlike our concept of oneness as well because our concept of oneness reduces God into an image in the mind that slowly becomes more idol than image.


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I love you too B.W
This is not about my being a headstrong non conformist.
Which I am but I am also intellectually honest.
And spiritually motivated more so than some defiant, bucking the trend hippie .
I just don't agree.
I have searched my soul on this, and bottom line, I think I'm right

[melanie]

OK, honestly I think there is too much heat that was going on between M n R. And both were equally wrong in going about 'getting to the point' with each other. Equally.. That said.. I'd actually like to know what Melanie thinks. Because I have a feeling there might be something more to this than just misunderstanding. That being said, the only thing I don't really know, and would really like to, is what Melanie's understanding is. In as complete (as long as it takes) a description as you can express.

Mallz, i don't usually get into it because of the backlash it causes although I have before.
But I can't pull that card because I brought it up.
It's really late, like ridiculously so for me.
I'm going to bed but I will expand on why I think like I do from a biblical perspective.

[EssentialSacrifice]

hippie .

, you can still find these ? .

[Mallz]

I spoke too fast..?

What I don't agree with is that the HS has a personage.

Can't a person be in the background..?
I kinda see the Father as Existence/Pure Actuality, the Holy spirit as the 'actualization' and Jesus as His divine Expression/personally ruling over existence. He is a person, so you can't have anything that is God, not being a person. If there is separate distinctions in God, it can only be in relation. Otherwise, just God. So any distinctions in the Divine, again can only be in relation to the Divine. The Holy Spirit is defined. He has to be a person..?
I feel what you're saying. And I think you're right, but He's still a person..
Holy Spirit hugs.. You can have them all the time..

[RickD]

First,

There's no "heat" coming from my end. I'm trying to be as straightforward as possible, in order to get to what I think is Mel's misunderstanding of the doctrine itself, or something else that pertains to the discussion.

And from what I'm reading, I'm seeing that the misunderstanding may have something to do with what Mel understands a "person" is. And the literalness of the throne in heaven. Is God the father, a physical being, sitting on a literal throne?

I cannot think of one single Christian denomination, that doesn't hold to the doctrine of the Trinity.

That doesn't make the doctrine biblically correct in itself. But to say that all denominations believe in the doctrine, means that it's been well studied. And not a single Christian denomination dismisses the doctrine. That to me, just gives more credence to my belief that Mel is misunderstanding something. And hopefully with all our input, we can flesh out the misunderstanding(s).

[Storyteller]

I believe the three in one, I kind of see it like mel too though. The Father.. the Creator. God. Christ... the Son, the Word made flesh. God. HS... that spirit of God dwelling in us, guiding us, nourishing us. God.

[Mallz]

I'm trying to be as straightforward as possible

Don't you know how to talk to a woman!
You gotta be poetic, bro! <-- Hippies exist

[RickD]

I'm trying to be as straightforward as possible

Don't you know how to talk to a woman!
You gotta be poetic, bro! <-- Hippies exist

If I'm coming across in a way that I'm not intending, I apologize. Mel and I have had enough conversations, that I hope she knows that she has my greatest respect. And I hope she knows that she shouldn't be reading emotions into what I'm saying, where no emotions are intended.

[Philip]

Here's what I don't get - how can one believe the Father is a person, the Son is a person, but then have a problem with the Holy Spirit being a person. When Jesus said the Father and I are One; Now let US make man in OUR image - and with all of the attributes of personhood assigned to the Holy Spirit in Scripture, I'm not getting the big objection the Trinity.

[Bluejay4]

Time to address the Spirit.

We know He will be inhabiting Heaven along with the Father and Son because of these scriptures

4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,

Now to find out if the Holy Spirit has/is willing to take on a physical/human nature let's go to scripture.

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

So here we have the Holy Spirit taking on the form of a Dove during Jesus's baptism, but let's go a little further...

33 Now all the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples joined forces and crossed over the Jordan and camped in the Valley of Jezreel. 34 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him. 35 He sent messengers throughout Manasseh, calling them to arms, and also into Asher, Zebulun and Naphtali, so that they too went up to meet them.

There are other similar instances where the Holy Spirit seems to posses humans for a temporary time to do a variety of Godly duties, so is it that much of a stretch that He may do it again while in Heaven?