When is killing not murder?

[Storyteller]

Putting this here as I dont want to derail JurrasicTerrorists thread.

The UK bombing Syria... civilians will get killed. It cant be any other way I guess but its stil hard to get my head around. Breaks my heart.

Am starting to understand but still cant help feel its murder, knowing innocent people will die.

Why is abortion wrong if its to save the mothers life but killing in war isnt?

[RickD]

Putting this here as I dont want to derail JurrasicTerrorists thread.

The UK bombing Syria... civilians will get killed. It cant be any other way I guess but its stil hard to get my head around. Breaks my heart.

Am starting to understand but still cant help feel its murder, knowing innocent people will die.

Why is abortion wrong if its to save the mothers life but killing in war isnt?

ST,

Personally, I don't think abortion would be wrong in certain cases where the mother's life is truly in danger. Let me clarify. I still think that abortion is wrong in those rare cases. But it may come down to which is "less" wrong.

But make no mistake about it, cases where the mother's life is in danger, and the only option to save her life is abortion, is extremely rare. Doctors are supposed to do all they can to save both lives. The mother and the unborn life.

[abelcainsbrother]

Putting this here as I dont want to derail JurrasicTerrorists thread.

The UK bombing Syria... civilians will get killed. It cant be any other way I guess but its stil hard to get my head around. Breaks my heart.

Am starting to understand but still cant help feel its murder, knowing innocent people will die.

Why is abortion wrong if its to save the mothers life but killing in war isnt?

There is no easy answer,nobody likes the thought of innocent people being killed however war can be a necessary thing for the greater good.It would be different if innocent people were being targeted but they are'nt the bombs are directed toward evil people.The Evil people stay close to innocent people hoping they won't be bombed yet they are still targeted,I blame the evil people for the innocent lives that are lost.I believe the military does all it can to target only the bad guys,this is not like in the old days today they have smart bombs that can target buildings with less than a five foot radius so they are only aiming for the bad guys,they are not dropping bombs just anywhere aiming for everybody.

[Nessa]

Putting this here as I dont want to derail JurrasicTerrorists thread.

The UK bombing Syria... civilians will get killed. It cant be any other way I guess but its stil hard to get my head around. Breaks my heart.

Am starting to understand but still cant help feel its murder, knowing innocent people will die.

Why is abortion wrong if its to save the mothers life but killing in war isnt?

ST,

Personally, I don't think abortion would be wrong in certain cases where the mother's life is truly in danger. Let me clarify. I still think that abortion is wrong in those rare cases. But it may come down to which is "less" wrong.

But make no mistake about it, cases where the mother's life is in danger, and the only option to save her life is abortion, is extremely rare. Doctors are supposed to do all they can to save both lives. The mother and the unborn life.

Also something really struck me awhile back in the 'In defense of objective morals' thread.

The term 'situational ethics' was used and I wonder if this is one of those times?

[Storyteller]

Thanks ACB, that helps

and nessa

I need a pondering thread....

[Storyteller]

And rick x

[Philip]

IF a decision was made to allow a mother to die so that her unborn child might live, is that still not a decision that ONE of them has to die? This mother may well be a mother of several young children, a wife, etc. - so, IF (and I agree with Rick that such a situation is exceptionally rare, but frequently trotted out in abortion debates) one of them must die, WHICH death has the most terrible consequences upon all impacted by that? Again, a rare and terribly difficult scenario. But such rare theoretical scenarios are frequently trotted out as emotional arguments in support of abortion.

Killing in war is also an issue of what is the greater good/lesser evil. What is the GREATER principle or command of God? Hopefully, the war is against those who will or are perpetrating evil and even MORE killing. The example of Scripture is that self defense by persons and nations is allowed and even necessary.

[abelcainsbrother]

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

[PaulSacramento]

Murder is "unjust" or unlawful killing.
mur·der
ˈmərdər/Submit
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
verb
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.
"somebody tried to murder Joe"
synonyms: kill, put to death, assassinate, execute, liquidate, eliminate, dispatch, butcher, slaughter, massacre, wipe out; M

There is the legal ramification of murder, which is simply the STARTING point and there is the MORAL ramification of murder that SHOULD be ABOVE the legal one.

In short, legally, killing someone without a legal justification and in a premeditated manner is murder.
Morally speaking, killing someone without just and moral cause, even if legal, is murder.

[melanie]

This is a hard question to ask, it's convoluted and ambigious.
When faced with a situation to defend and protect killing can occur which may not be considered murder.

But just because a death may be considered lawful under mans law does not mean that is so under God.

How do we decide in war what is justified? Necessary?.
What is the greater good? Who is more evil?
Who is perpetuating more deaths?

History had shown us time and time again, we get it wrong.
We misjudge, misunderstand, and kill for purposes we think are justified but history reflects just how wrong we were. Those that did so at the time thought they were justified. They did so with righteousness and far to often a perception of godliness.

So often war comes down to geopolitics, foreign policy and monetary gain.
As long as it's not your children laying dead in the streets, it's not your grandparents being bombed, it's not your lives hanging in the balance it's easy to paint those that are dying as the culprits otherwise how would we justify it?

200,000 died in Iraq at the hand of the west. Not by Saddam Hussein but by our bombs.
Don't see it as a number but as people, dead. Civilians. Innocents.
For what??
For the greater good?
For whom?
Not for them.

Killing isn't murder when it's not your child.
It's justified when it's not your family and friends. It's far to easy to sit back and calculate deaths as necessary when your house isn't being bombed. When your loved ones aren't part of the statistics.

None of its necessary, or good. It's not Godly.
It's wrong.
When the west started many years ago having a heavy hand in middle eastern politics it wasn't for your military security but for your economic security.
The were used as a commodity, manipulated and controlled.

Painted as the bad guys so their deaths and lives were seen as less than valuable or even tradegic but a necessary evil.

When did we get so arrogant to think our governments were not a player in what could be considered an evil where money and oil could be put before lives and regional stability.
We have armed militant groups within the Middle East. Given them weapons and trained them, with complete disregard for their national stability but for our own gain.
We have learnt nothing and are doing the exact same thing in Syria. Against Assad, and his ties to Russia.

I don think we are any better.
Sometimes it just isn't a case of the greater evil. But just evil
It's not a case of justified death, but just death.
Not a case of the greater good. But no good.

[Philip]

Yes, no doubt, stupid and immoral politics often drive violence and wars that are wrong. However, there are other times, other situation, which DO require proactive protective measures.

Sometimes it just isn't a case of the greater evil.

And sometimes it IS.

It's not a case of justified death ...

And sometimes it IS.

Not a case of the greater good.

And sometimes it IS!

For all of the gray areas, difficult decisions, there are times when we can't know every aspect of a situation, but sometimes, what we DO know of situations and very real dangers justifies extreme measures and reactions. It is crucial that, in such a dangerous world, we realize that peace cannot always be had without extreme measures - whether offensive or defensive. This is what our examples in Scripture reveal. And there are times in which we don't have the luxury of knowing every single variable or waiting further to see if what looks to be a certainty actually is - that is how GREATER, more prolonged wars of even greater death can arise. So, there is a balance to wielding force - what can we/should we, to the best of our ability, in real-time, know and decide, according to Godly principles, do - or not do. If we think we can always make the right decision, in such situations, that's not gonna happen. We're mortal, we live in a sin-filled, evil world. So, there's a balanced way to look at this issue - extreme views on either side are both dangerous!