How do we stop terrorism?

[PaulSacramento]

It is not intolerance to point out what is wrong with an ideology ( I use that term instead of religion because it is more encompassing and more correct).
See, the religion of Islam is a militant one, it openly preaches conversion by force and even death to the infidel is acceptable.
There is no such thing as "moderate Islam" (though there are moderate muslims).
It is very hard for me to say this because, at one point, I viewed Muslims like I view Jews, as our distant cousins.
Worshipers of the same God, albeit with different understandings of WHO He is but not WHAT he wants.
Alas, I have come to see that is NOT the case and it has broken my heart.
Islam is evil because it takes what is wrong and says it is correct.
Islam creates extremism because it breeds it, feeds it and extremism sustains Islam.
We have all seen the waters turn red with blood, LITERALLY, in the ME because of ISIS and because extremist Islam has NOT been controlled, has not been stopped by moderate Islam because moderate islam does NOT exist.
We do not see or hear of protests against ISIS by Islam.
We do not hear cries of condemnation by Islam when ISIS kills and slaughters.
All we hear is "Not me", "Not Us".

Well, guess what?

When WE do nothing to stop evil then IT IS US !

[RickD]

Wow Paul,

This is a new you! Taking a side, and not sitting on the fence!

I like this new you!

[edwardmurphy]

Ed, you trot out the usual rhetoric so as to insinuate that war against an organized evil army is somehow immoral, it's all our fault, etc., blah, blah.

Hardly. You're projecting straw man arguments onto me.

My concern isn't that it would be evil to fight ISIS, my concern is that it would be catastrophic to do it wrong. Last time we went busting in we royally screwed up the entire region and laid the groundwork for what we're dealing with today. Sorry if hearing that is offensive to you, but the fact is this is mostly our own fault. If Saddam Hussein was still in power ISIS wouldn't exist. And no, that doesn't mean I'm a Saddamophile. The guy was a monster, but then it's a monster-rich region, and Saddam was keeping a lid on his patch of sand. That makes him an improvement over the current situation.

Obviously something needs to be done about ISIS, but we need to be careful about which something we choose, and either way we need to make some changes to our behavior. Did you read what Mel wrote? She was right. Crap like Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and that half-wit preacher making a big deal of burning a Koran push young, impressionable, idealistic kids into the arms of ISIS fanatics. The presence of American troops in the Middle East, our blind support of everything that Israel ever does, and our aggressive drone campaign makes people angry and creates more radicals. FOX News crapping on Muslims is a boon for ISIS recruiters. Donald Trump and Jeb X saying that we should stop admitting Muslim refugees is terrific for ISIS. People like you, preaching about how Islam is evil probably helps ISIS a bit.

So basically I'm hopeful that our policy-makers can manage to ignore the Chicken Little faction and take the time to come up with a good plan. That plan needs to have two components -

First off, we need to put a lid on things that benefit ISIS recruiting. That means that we need to stop with all of the stupid, useless, counter-productive anti-Islam rhetoric. We need to take a more neutral stance toward Israel - sure, they have the right to exist, but they also need to be better neighbors. We need to be extremely careful with our bombs and drones. We need FOX News, Donald Trump, and half of Congress to can the Islamophobic rhetoric. In short, we need to behave like the nation that we claim to be.

Second, we need to somehow destroy ISIS without making everything worse. That probably means that we need to mix diplomacy with careful, precise force. If we put half a million troops on the ground over there we'll have no trouble driving ISIS underground and taking control of the area, but within a month or two we'll run up against the mother of all insurgencies. When was the last time we defeated an insurgency...?

How precisely we'll do all of those things I have no idea. I actually doubt it's possible. But taking a deep breath and looking at the big picture would be a good start.

Maybe they just need some nice hugs and kind words, eh? Invite them over for cupcakes and tea, to join us in a heartfelt chorus of "Kumbaya?"

No, I don't think that would work, but way to resist your knee-jerk tendencies and think outside the box. Kudos.

[Philip]

Ed: Last time we went busting in we royally screwed up the entire region and laid the groundwork for what we're dealing with today. Sorry if hearing that is offensive to you, but the fact is this is mostly our own fault.

Ed, do you ever READ? I asserted that taking out the entire Iraq government was a HUGE mistake. Nation-building - dumb and dumber fantasy. Saddam could have been removed without the rest of the nonsense.

Ed: Did you read what Mel wrote? She was right. Crap like Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and that half-wit preacher making a big deal of burning a Koran push young, impressionable, idealistic kids into the arms of ISIS fanatics.

No, these things don't help, but they are FAR from the much greater problem of their political/religious views of conquering, killing, butchuring. Not to mention, these things from the past don't change the fact that we need to step up in a big way - focusing on the past screw-ups won't solve what needs to be done today. Yep, we CAN be smarter, not HELP fan the flames. But make no mistake, the bigger reasons for the flames are not what you mention - but it is what media and terrorist organizations would assert as excuses for their evil actions and goals that dwarf any asserted gripes. They are upset at things that have caused strife in their world, and yet they themselves want to destroy whole civilizations to enslave, rape, destroy. These are people who have no concept or intentions of peace. They understand and respect but ONE thing: Overwhelming force!

Ed: The presence of American troops in the Middle East, our blind support of everything that Israel ever does, and our aggressive drone campaign makes people angry and creates more radicals. FOX News crapping on Muslims is a boon for ISIS recruiters. Donald Trump and Jeb X saying that we should stop admitting Muslim refugees is terrific for ISIS. People like you, preaching about how Islam is evil probably helps ISIS a bit.

Ed, you are so predictable. Hate to tell you, guy, but TROOPS, yes, boots on the ground ARE going to be necessary to stop ISIS. Fox News has brought up many legitimate issues with Radical Islam. IF radicals have easily penetrated certain populations desiring to come here, then YES, until we have a way of screening out the bad guys, it makes total sense to put the brakes on immigration - that makes total sense.

Ed: That means that we need to stop with all of the stupid, useless, counter-productive anti-Islam rhetoric.

Um, does the truth of what Islam teaches offend you, Ed? Do you think it is not helpful for people to wake up and see from where the seeds of radical Islam truly spring from? People NEED to know where a big part of the problem is. NOTHING you mention, if totally changed, will stop those who think like the radicals. They're killing their fellow Muslims like flies - and yet those same Muslims far more support the ideas of Islam than anyone in the West. Still, they're murdering them anyway.

Ed: We need to be extremely careful with our bombs and drones.

Oh, you mean where we must be 100% sure before we unleash a drone that we don't kill unintended targets? Do you know of ANY other bombing techniques that can do this? Nah, didn't think so. Every terrorist killed by a drone was money well spent! It's them or us! War is a dirty, dangerous, unpredictable business. There are FEW certainties related to engaging a dangerous enemy.

Ed: Second, we need to somehow destroy ISIS without making everything worse. That probably means that we need to mix diplomacy with careful, precise force.

DIPLOMACY with these lunatics???!!! Are you freaking SERIOUS!!! Yeah, I'll really trust the leadership of organizations that will send women into markets with bombs, will mow down young kids at cafes with machine guns.

Ed: If we put half a million troops on the ground over there we'll have no trouble driving ISIS underground and taking control of the area, but within a month or two we'll run up against the mother of all insurgencies. When was the last time we defeated an insurgency...?

We can only do what we CAN do. We might NEVER defeat them, but we can keep them at bay enough, hopefully to keep their numbers small and off our shores. ISIS controls territory where they mass troops, train, they have geographically identifiable targets. These all are attackable. Deny them areas for staging, planning, training, as best we can. They still represent targets of territory - this means troops will also be necessary.

Ed: How precisely we'll do all of those things I have no idea. I actually doubt it's possible.

Pretty clear that you don't want to do anything that is not guaranteed success. So, you doubt it's even possible? So, does that mean we don't do the best we can? Do we wait until we have the perfect plan? All you've done is trot out the same old liberal rhetoric, no new ideas, and appear to believe that ISIS is a rational group who only exist because of our missteps and mistakes. I can tell you this, if we do not do our very best to eradicate this enemy, we are making a huge mistake. If you think adjustments in how we treat the Mideast, diplomacy, etc., dialing back anti-Islamist sentiments - against an enemy sworn to wipe the West off of the map, who hates all things Western, equating them with Christianity, throwing homosexuals off of buildings, stoning people - so, we shouldn't use such forceful language over people who think like this? And you believe that these are big keys to defeating and stopping ISIS - these are your focus? Wow, Ed, just wow!

[edwardmurphy]

Ok, Chicken Little, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Storyteller]

I have absolutely no idea how ISIS can be defeated.

The online hacker group Anonymous has taken down a few ISIS sites, twitter accounts etc and ISIS responded apparently (didnt read either article, will look it up and post a link later). If thats true, at least its something.
Do we just go in and decimate the place?

I read of a case where an extremist, who when given a Bible by the guy he beheaded, read it and came to Christ, so it is possible.

I saw that beheading video FL posted a while back, it haunts me. I pray that a solution will be, can be found.

[Philip]

To defeat - or at least hold at bay/largely neutralize the Islamists - it all starts with the determination and willpower to do so. The tactics can and should be debated. Doing nothing will be to eventually capitulate, be annihilated. These are high-tech, financially well-healed barbarian psychos. Don't try to figure them out - only how to stop them, AS WELL AS prevent them from developing. And while we realize there are limitations to what can be done, no certainty of outcomes, we must make a plan, keep tweaking it, stay committed to doing all we can. And, most importantly, seek God's guidance in how to best stand up to evil. We're not alone in this!

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I saw that beheading video FL posted a while back, it haunts me. I pray that a solution will be, can be found.

That video was nothin'! ISIS has since increased its brutality in order to stay in the limelight...but we are still stuck with our head in the sand. There isn't the political will to do much more against ISIS than send in the air forces of various nations and arm yet more fruitcake groups on the ground who will turn on us in the future.

So, I agree with Eddy in that we will not prevail:

Second, we need to somehow destroy ISIS without making everything worse...How precisely we'll do all of those things I have no idea. I actually doubt it's possible.

Eddy's idea of «mixing diplomacy with careful, precise force» is just stupid but it is the most likely course of action the West will follow. After all, it is the same pattern the West has been using with Hamas, Fatah and Hizbollah. And, as History has the bad habit of repeating itself, we should sooner or later convince ourselves that we are responsible for the evil that is upon us. (well...I think Eddy has already suggested that we are responsible...the intellectual gangrene seems to have already set in...)

[abelcainsbrother]

I can't know or say how it is all going to turn out but Islamic terrorism in going to be used in the future to bring in the mark of the beast system.God is going to give the world exactly what they chose and want which is islamic Terrorism. Christians need to be prayed up and filled with the Holy Spirit as we go forward in these last days and ready for the rapture of the church.I know I'm just a doom and gloom preacher,but read your bible many people are beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast and tell me who beheads people today?Is it just coincidence that John saw people beheaded?

[edwardmurphy]

Eddy's idea of «mixing diplomacy with careful, precise force» is just stupid but it is the most likely course of action the West will follow. After all, it is the same pattern the West has been using with Hamas, Fatah and Hizbollah.

I didn't say diplomacy with ISIS, I said diplomacy. There are plenty of other people we could talk to. Here's an undated Middle East Friendship Chart, which is absurdly complicated but is still an oversimplification.

Why on Earth would we ever send troops into that mess, especially since it seems like that's precisely what ISIS wants us to do...?

And, as History has the bad habit of repeating itself, we should sooner or later convince ourselves that we are responsible for the evil that is upon us. (well...I think Eddy has already suggested that we are responsible...the intellectual gangrene seems to have already set in...)

History? Context? Complexity? No way, man, you guys are like goldfish. Forget all those liberal ploys to confuse the issue. Them terrorists attacked Mer'ca totally out of the blue because we're Christian, rich, and good and they're evil, Muslim, and evil! Now they're gonna swim over here and kill us all if'n we don't go over there and clean 'em out!

Here's an article about blowback written by a small-town, old-school, small-government conservative from south of the Mason-Dixon line. Perhaps his words will succeed where mine have failed. I haven't been able to find an article written by a conservative that says the real world is more complex that an episode of the Superfriends, but I know you're not going to take my word for it so I'll keep looking.

BTW, I know it's off topic, but what are you doing in Ivujivik?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I didn't say diplomacy with ISIS, I said diplomacy. There are plenty of other people we could talk to. Here's an undated Middle East Friendship Chart, which is absurdly complicated but is still an oversimplification.

Oh...OK. Interesting chart you linked to...thanks. I'll have to look at it again tonight when I get home from work. Offhand, I doubt that diplomacy works in the Middle East.

History? Context? Complexity? No way, man, you guys are like goldfish. Forget all those liberal ploys to confuse the issue. Them terrorists attacked Mer'ca totally out of the blue because we're Christian, rich, and good and they're evil, Muslim, and evil! Now they're gonna swim over here and kill us all if'n we don't go over there and clean 'em out!

Interesting article about blowback you linked to as well...the comments after the article also impressed me. I don't doubt that there is blowback. The US also meddles in Europe and in Canada, this is just normal for a superpower. The difference is that Europeans don't retaliate by knifing Americans on the street or flying airliners into American buildings! I'll have to consider the links you provided and get back to you later, after my day job.

BTW, I know it's off topic, but what are you doing in Ivujivik?

My wife is adventurous and likes to work in unusual places. I just tag along. She's also worked in Peru and Switzerland. This place is the strangest I've ever been to and has given me insights into: 1, what it's like to be an unwanted immigrant; 2, what it's like to be a priviledged immigrant; 3, what it's like to live in the arctic; 4, what it's like to live someplace where consumerism doesn't exist; 4, how a fragile culture is damaged by contact with us; 6, I could go on a long time...

Well, I'm off to jail today...

[RickD]

FL wrote:
Well, I'm off to jail today...

Ne pas faire tomber le savon.

[PaulSacramento]

Wow Paul,

This is a new you! Taking a side, and not sitting on the fence!

I like this new you!

It's hard to sit on the fence when our brothers and sisters are being killed because of their faith.
It's hard to sit on the fence when common sense, reason and rational is showing you what side to take.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I didn't say diplomacy with ISIS, I said diplomacy. There are plenty of other people we could talk to. Here's an undated Middle East Friendship Chart, which is absurdly complicated but is still an oversimplification.

Well, there are not many people on that Mideast Frienship Chart that are worth talking to. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states may be allies but to paraphrase a popular maxim, «With allies like that you don't need foes.» I'll explain: you are probably too young to remember the old Soviet Union. Back in the 1970s and 80s, there were several terrorist organizations operating in what was then Western Europe. The most famous of these were the Baader-Meinhof Gang and the Red Brigades. When the USSR fell, it was revealed that the KGB generously financed these groups for the sole purpose of raising Hell in NATO countries. My guess is that something similar is going on today. The Wahabists of Saudi and the royal family of Qatar are not the type of people you would want as in-laws, yet our financial considerations have forced us into a marriage of convenience. (Qatar's royal family are owners of Al-jazeera and Al Gore's ill-fated Current TV. Al-jazeera is a notorious whitewasher of terrorist actions.) I could go on, but I'll leave it at that.

Why on Earth would we ever send troops into that mess, especially since it seems like that's precisely what ISIS wants us to do...?

Troops wouldn't work anyway. At best, the West would only send in a limp-wristed contingent because public pressure would prevent most countries from declaring all-out war.

History? Context? Complexity? No way, man, you guys are like goldfish. Forget all those liberal ploys to confuse the issue. Them terrorists attacked Mer'ca totally out of the blue because we're Christian, rich, and good and they're evil, Muslim, and evil! Now they're gonna swim over here and kill us all if'n we don't go over there and clean 'em out!

Ask yourself this: of all Arab countries there are in the world, why is there only one that enjoys the same freedom from repression we enjoy. This country enjoys a free press, free elections, freedom of thought; its buildings are not bombed out, its streets are safe, no one languishes in jail for nothing. The country is Malta. What is it about Malta that makes it so different from other Arab countries?

Another question you must ask yourself: Israel is the only country where 1.6 million Arab citizens (Muslim & others) have complete political, religious and economic freedom. How can this be?

Answer these questions, and it may occur to you that «History? Context? Complexity?» are largely irrelevent when it comes to Islam. That religion is damned. Nothing we do will make it well. Look at its founder, and you'll see what the ideal Muslim must be like. More and more Muslims are like their «Prophet», and more and more of them are living among us.

FL wrote:
Well, I'm off to jail today...

Ne pas faire tomber le savon.

Actually, the Inuit are shocked by what they see in southern jails. Homosexuality is considered a vile perversion by both men and women Inuit detainees I've spoken to.

[Storyteller]

http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/21/muslims-s ... k-5578401/

Saw this.

There is always hope that evil will not, can not, win.