Adam has to be real.

winningedge101 · Post by **winningedge101** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:28 pm

Guys I'm not going to lie I'm starting to crave to the world. It feels like there is so much evidence against the world-wide flood and a before flood world. I can't take on theistic evolution though because Jesus Christ, his genealogy can be traced all the way back to Adam. I honestly don't know what to do because if there is no God honestly I don't know what the point is in living because my existence and consciousness will be obliterated after I die.

How do theistic evolution people try and get around stuff like Adam?

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:37 pm

winningedge101 wrote:Guys I'm not going to lie I'm starting to crave to the world. It feels like there is so much evidence against the world-wide flood and a before flood world. I can't take on theistic evolution though because Jesus Christ, his genealogy can be traced all the way back to Adam. I honestly don't know what to do because if there is no God honestly I don't know what the point is in living because my existence and consciousness will be obliterated after I die. How do theistic evolution people try and get around stuff like Adam?

Some don't. Maybe a TE will chime in. Many TEs believe Adam was a literal, historical person. Some believe he was the first person in the ancestry of Jesus. And they have no issues believing in evolution AND scripture.

But if you would think that God doesn't exist, just because you have issues with a global flood, or whether Adam was the first human or the first in the line of people that lead up to Christ, then I'd say you have a much bigger issue to deal with, than Adam.

Furstentum Liechtenstein · Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:38 pm

winningedge101 wrote:How do theistic evolution people try and get around stuff like Adam?

Forget Theistic Evolution. abelcainsbrother should post any minute now and convince you that Gap Theory is the Way.

abelcainsbrother · Post by **abelcainsbrother** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:42 pm

winningedge101 wrote:Guys I'm not going to lie I'm starting to crave to the world. It feels like there is so much evidence against the world-wide flood and a before flood world. I can't take on theistic evolution though because Jesus Christ, his genealogy can be traced all the way back to Adam. I honestly don't know what to do because if there is no God honestly I don't know what the point is in living because my existence and consciousness will be obliterated after I die. How do theistic evolution people try and get around stuff like Adam?

Creationism is in a crisis and you are realizing it,however atheism is not the answer.The church has been using the wrong creation interpretations against evolution,especially YEC and it has had very little effect. You are seeing and realizing this but evolution is a myth even if you can't seem to find the right answers to your questions.I know there are theistic evolutionists but I believe they have been duped too by evolution. It is easy to just give in and accept evolution. But what convinces you evolution is true? Even if creationism has its problems that does not mean evolution is true.

When you say a before flood world what are you talking about? Are you talking about Gap Theory creationism? Because if you are I don't see how you can claim we don't have evidence for it. The fossils are proof a former world existed that perished if you don't look at them from an evolution pov. The fossils prove a former world existed however the Gap Theory is not as popular as the others,but this does not matter to me. I know Gap Theory creationism would have destroyed the theory of evolution long ago had the majority of the church had been teaching Gap Theory creationism instead of young earth creationism. Don't let the crisis in creationism effect your faith in God because I would reject the evolution myth even if I was an atheist.

What we need is knowledgable Gap theorists to debate evolutionists think like Kent Hovind or Ken Ham vs Bill Nye and once people actually see how the Gap Theory totally defeats evolution the perception will change and it will finally get the recognition it deserves,regardless of what rival creation theories say. You could be apart of that change too.

abelcainsbrother · Post by **abelcainsbrother** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:18 am

Before you accept evolution I think you should read this book first.It is by far the best book I have ever read about why evolution is wrong.From this book there are other books you may want to get also you'll learn about from reading this book.Most any creationist who rejects evolution is pretty good at explaining why evolution is wrong. Even young earth creationists are pretty good but this book will help take it up another notch on why evolution is wrong.You'll be able to refute evolution without even bringing up creationism.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... EvoGenesis

B. W. · Post by **B. W.** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:11 am

winningedge101 wrote:Guys I'm not going to lie I'm starting to crave to the world. It feels like there is so much evidence against the world-wide flood and a before flood world. I can't take on theistic evolution though because Jesus Christ, his genealogy can be traced all the way back to Adam. I honestly don't know what to do because if there is no God honestly I don't know what the point is in living because my existence and consciousness will be obliterated after I die. How do theistic evolution people try and get around stuff like Adam?

Well, by watching some TV... relax and don't be in a hurry

Now onto a more serious mode.

You brought up a good point. Spoke with a mother today whose grown daughter's family is entrenched in YEC stuff. It has made her daughter disown her because she is OEC. The point the mother made to me was how sad for the grand kids and all kids raised in such extreme YEC environments, home schooled or privet schools that entreat YEC, is that after the kids get older and go to college, many encounter a crisis of Faith and disown Christianity.

This crisis is due to militant typed of YEC they grew into and then discovered something else. Now I need to ask you Winningedge101, did you grow up in such or like environment I just described?

Suggest you take some time and digest what I wrote on Genesis chapters 1 and 2 and begin on page two...

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 1&start=15

It may help you or confuse you more so let me know

The creation account and the flood account does not prove or disprove the bible. Not understanding these perfectly or as perfectly literal is not important. They are narrative histories that dispense with all the details as was the common way ancient history was written.

Here is an example of this type of narrative still used in history concerning the American Civil War when you will read something written like this: In 1864 U.S. Grant defeated Robert E Lee at the battle of Spotsylvania Virginia.

Now if I take that literally then two men met in Spotsylvania Virginia and battled it out and the guy named Grant won. However, the narrative means the armies under the leadership of these two generals is what is meant. Point is this, the details are left out in narratives and likewise some details in the Genesis creation account are left out as well too.

Also how genealogies were done in ancient times would often leave relatives out of the family tree so there are gaps. This occurs today as well. You list what you have but your family list may not have everyone in it. That is okay when we trace our own family tree genealogies but when it comes to the bible, some folks have a fit.

The whole point of Romans 5:12 is that we all come from Adam's lineage and that includes you. So please do not get hung up on genealogies now please read these verses: 1 Tim 1:4 and Titus 3:9

How do some folks in christian circles created strife and division? How do they unknowingly create division by YEC? Are you not feeling like dividing yourself from the body of Christ? I rest my case.

The important thing in the bible is not how long the days of creation were, or genealogies that keeps one saved, makes one saved, or by believing strictly YEC means that God like you better than all others and that by believing YEC will cure all the worlds ills is simply not scripturaly accurate. In fact, it take one's eyes off Jesus as Savior and one's eye's on something else as the means of salvation.

It is nice to desire proof, Thomas even desired such proof from Jesus despite the evidence presented him. That is commendable only if such doubt is not not serving as an excuse to use to justify not accepting the finished work of Jesus Christ in one's life.

So are you afraid of serving Christ? Have fear being made fun of? afraid you cannot measure up?

Do you really know him? Would you like too?

Which leads to this...

Do you really know the meaning of the cross and what the cross of Jesus is all about? That is what it is all about...

..it cures the cravings for the world too, one craving or two at a time and with each craving gone, fear removed, the more you'll discover how really Jesus really is. Would you like that or would you like to keep playing games with your emotions?

The Peace from Jesus Christ rest upon you

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RickD · Post by **RickD** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:29 am

abelcainsbrother wrote:
winningedge101 wrote:Guys I'm not going to lie I'm starting to crave to the world. It feels like there is so much evidence against the world-wide flood and a before flood world. I can't take on theistic evolution though because Jesus Christ, his genealogy can be traced all the way back to Adam. I honestly don't know what to do because if there is no God honestly I don't know what the point is in living because my existence and consciousness will be obliterated after I die. How do theistic evolution people try and get around stuff like Adam?
Creationism is in a crisis and you are realizing it,however atheism is not the answer.The church has been using the wrong creation interpretations against evolution,especially YEC and it has had very little effect. You are seeing and realizing this but evolution is a myth even if you can't seem to find the right answers to your questions.I know there are theistic evolutionists but I believe they have been duped too by evolution. It is easy to just give in and accept evolution. But what convinces you evolution is true? Even if creationism has its problems that does not mean evolution is true.

When you say a before flood world what are you talking about? Are you talking about Gap Theory creationism? Because if you are I don't see how you can claim we don't have evidence for it. The fossils are proof a former world existed that perished if you don't look at them from an evolution pov. The fossils prove a former world existed however the Gap Theory is not as popular as the others,but this does not matter to me. I know Gap Theory creationism would have destroyed the theory of evolution long ago had the majority of the church had been teaching Gap Theory creationism instead of young earth creationism. Don't let the crisis in creationism effect your faith in God because I would reject the evolution myth even if I was an atheist.

What we need is knowledgable Gap theorists to debate evolutionists think like Kent Hovind or Ken Ham vs Bill Nye and once people actually see how the Gap Theory totally defeats evolution the perception will change and it will finally get the recognition it deserves,regardless of what rival creation theories say. You could be apart of that change too.

Right on cue! Furstentum Liechtenstein, you were correct!

I always say, "Never allow an opportunity to go by, without somehow, making it about the gap theory".

DBowling · Post by **DBowling** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:51 am

winningedge101 wrote:Guys I'm not going to lie I'm starting to crave to the world. It feels like there is so much evidence against the world-wide flood and a before flood world. I can't take on theistic evolution though because Jesus Christ, his genealogy can be traced all the way back to Adam. I honestly don't know what to do because if there is no God honestly I don't know what the point is in living because my existence and consciousness will be obliterated after I die. How do theistic evolution people try and get around stuff like Adam?

Some thoughts...
1. A perfect understanding of human origins is not a requirement for Salvation. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Our faith is in the person of Jesus Christ, not in our understanding of human origins.

2. We need to differentiate between the authority of Scripture, and the authority of human traditions about Scripture. Scripture is authoritative. Human traditions about Scripture are not. The tradition about a World Wide Flood is just that, a tradition. It is based on a particular way of interpreting Scripture, but as our home site demonstrates Scripture itself indicates that Noah's flood was local to Mesopotamia.
The Genesis Flood Why the Bible Says It Must be Local
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... flood.html

Traditions about Scripture can be shown to be incorrect and flawed, but that does not mean that Scripture itself is flawed.

3. I am not personally a Theistic Evolutionist, but here is a link to a site that supports Theistic Evolution and believes in a historical Adam and the historical accuracy of the book of Genesis.
Genesis Proclaimed Association
http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/

4. Finally and most importantly... Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life!
It is our relationship with Jesus that brings life and true meaning to life.

In Christ

abelcainsbrother · Post by **abelcainsbrother** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:54 am

I'm not trying to be offensive to any YEC.I'm not bashing anybody when I say this but the reason why so many people reject Noah's flood is the way YEC's have taught it.YEC's have really made Noah's flood a target because they have to cram all of the evidence in the earth into Noah's flood and the biggest problem is how they have taught Noah's flood that is really not even biblical or scientific despite "creation science".Lets face it secular science is never going to accept a biblical explanation in science but it still matters how we teach Noah's flood happened.

There are much,much better explanations for Noah's flood and they have been around for along time too,long before young earth "creation science". Knowledgable Gap Theorists have made a much,much more believable way to explain Noah's flood and it is both biblical and scientific and a world wide flood too,not a local flood.Gap Theorists just don't cram all of the evidence into Noah's flood.I don't know if we could prove Noah's flood happened but I know it still matters how we teach it happened.

These non-biblical imaginary "water canopy" theories are not even biblical muchless scientific and it comes from not understanding the bible properly. Anytime these issues come up some people get offended personally but these are issues that need to be discussed in an honest brother in Christ way,instead of just acting like everything is alright,when it is'nt.Nobody who is a Christian should not be willing to change their mind if/when there is a better way to understand and teach the bible,even when it comes to creationism,nobody gets a pass,not even YEC's.If I'm willing to change my mind? You should be too.We cannot just hide behind Jesus and keep teaching how Noah's flood happened wrong.
Noah Found Grace In The Eyes Of The Lord. For you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWPuS8En9WU

abelcainsbrother · Post by **abelcainsbrother** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:41 am

RickD wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote:
winningedge101 wrote:Guys I'm not going to lie I'm starting to crave to the world. It feels like there is so much evidence against the world-wide flood and a before flood world. I can't take on theistic evolution though because Jesus Christ, his genealogy can be traced all the way back to Adam. I honestly don't know what to do because if there is no God honestly I don't know what the point is in living because my existence and consciousness will be obliterated after I die. How do theistic evolution people try and get around stuff like Adam?
Creationism is in a crisis and you are realizing it,however atheism is not the answer.The church has been using the wrong creation interpretations against evolution,especially YEC and it has had very little effect. You are seeing and realizing this but evolution is a myth even if you can't seem to find the right answers to your questions.I know there are theistic evolutionists but I believe they have been duped too by evolution. It is easy to just give in and accept evolution. But what convinces you evolution is true? Even if creationism has its problems that does not mean evolution is true.

When you say a before flood world what are you talking about? Are you talking about Gap Theory creationism? Because if you are I don't see how you can claim we don't have evidence for it. The fossils are proof a former world existed that perished if you don't look at them from an evolution pov. The fossils prove a former world existed however the Gap Theory is not as popular as the others,but this does not matter to me. I know Gap Theory creationism would have destroyed the theory of evolution long ago had the majority of the church had been teaching Gap Theory creationism instead of young earth creationism. Don't let the crisis in creationism effect your faith in God because I would reject the evolution myth even if I was an atheist.

What we need is knowledgable Gap theorists to debate evolutionists think like Kent Hovind or Ken Ham vs Bill Nye and once people actually see how the Gap Theory totally defeats evolution the perception will change and it will finally get the recognition it deserves,regardless of what rival creation theories say. You could be apart of that change too.
Right on cue! Furstentum Liechtenstein, you were correct!

I always say, "Never allow an opportunity to go by, without somehow, making it about the gap theory".

I'm concerned about him losing his faith and I'm just offering other suggestions that might help him.Anybody else can do the same for their creation interpretation.I would'nt have a problem with it. Theistic evolution,YEC,OEC,Progressive Creationism,etc it makes no difference to me as long as he does'nt lose his faith.He can decide,he has several to choose from.

PaulSacramento · Post by **PaulSacramento** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:41 am

There are varying views on TE.
My view is that the evolutionary process was, at times, guided by God but MOST of the time it goes on "auto-pilot" as God designed it to.
As for Adam, I do believe that He and Eve were real people and there is nothing about them being real people that contradicts any aspect of TE per say since pretty much ALL TE views subscribe to the fact that God CAN and sometimes DOES act in nature through divine intervention.

Post by **Philip** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:17 am

ANYONE so caught up in evolutionary arguments, issues over the flood's extent, how long the creation days actually were, even whether Adam was real - proof of none of these is necessary to realize that, the very fact this universe exists, that it had a sudden and extraordinary beginning, in which ALL physical things, matter, time, space, dimension - ALL of which, moments before, did NOT yet exist - spectacularly burst into existence, instantly, with unfathomable power, design, massive complexity, and comprehensive interaction, ALL perfectly coordinated and operating to, not in some random, mass chaos (as in an explosion), but with astonishing precision and according to to incredibly complex laws guiding their functionality (laws of physics do NOT create themselves - they are merely observations of how things are designed to operate). And, JUST the necessary elements, chemistries and physics are what burst into existence - rather curious, that.

NONE of the above could have happened without a Super Intelligence of astounding power being responsible for it! In fact, as for the workings of the early universe and the world and what now exists, we still have barely scratched the surface as to our understanding of what this super Intelligence has done / of how and why things work the way they do. So, there was absolutely NOTHING that existed, and moments later, the things, functions and actions of what burst into existence were so incredible and complex that struggling to understand them has preoccupied the minds of the world's greatest thinkers, since mankind's beginning. Eventually, there were EXACTLY the necessary elements necessary to make life possible here - and they are both many, and individually, MASSIVELY complex. But, first there is NO life, and then there was, in which every mechanism in even the simplest cell functions and operates with design and functionality beyond any computer ever built. EVERY mechanism in that first cellular life HAD to ALL BE IN PLACE AT ONCE - the pieces could not independently evolve because ALL parts of even a simple cell are immediately interdependent and NECESSARY for that cell to function as designed to, as a living cell.

To believe the things I've mentioned could have happened or exist without a God defies basic logic. I call this Super Creator Jesus Christ. And He is revealed to us in prophetic history and events that powerfully attest to their truth, if one cares to carefully examine them. NO other religious tradition or teaching gives such powerful and abundant evidences. Really, the evidences for what I've referenced are so abundant that only ignoring it, refusing to examine it, RUNNING from it, will keep a person from not seeing it. These all require determined, willful resistance. You WILL find that which you make a priority to. But a person will never find what they refuse, avoid, or don't want to know about. These are actions of deliberately rejecting God.

winningedge101 · Post by **winningedge101** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:38 am

Thanks guys for some of the comments. I just love science and don't know how to interpret Genesis at all. I'm going to look at those links you guys gave me and I'll comment back. This song pretty much sums up my doubt at times, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBsA2ETp7JA

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:47 am

winningedge101 wrote:Thanks guys for some of the comments. I just love science and don't know how to interpret Genesis at all. I'm going to look at those links you guys gave me and I'll comment back. This song pretty much sums up my doubt at times, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBsA2ETp7JA

Don't worry so much about interpreting Genesis. Just keep praying about it, and God will lead you.

And for future reference, when posting a YouTube video with foul language, please give a warning.

And second, when posting a YouTube video that has rap, please give a warning.

The foul language I can stomach. It's the rap that makes me wanna

Nessa · Post by **Nessa** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:48 am

RickD wrote:
winningedge101 wrote:Thanks guys for some of the comments. I just love science and don't know how to interpret Genesis at all. I'm going to look at those links you guys gave me and I'll comment back. This song pretty much sums up my doubt at times, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBsA2ETp7JA
Don't worry so much about interpreting Genesis. Just keep praying about it, and God will lead you.

And for future reference, when posting a YouTube video with foul language, please give a warning.

And second, when posting a YouTube video that has rap, please give a warning.

The foul language I can stomach. It's the rap that makes me wanna

Well, I did say in another thread that I wanted to witness someone's prayer life

Wonder if heaven has its own bleeping system when prayers are heard

I was glad I watched it.
I have said a similar prayer myself dropping a few of those f bombs

Evidence for God from Science

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