Revelation and the Olivet Prophecy

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:34 am

From puritanlad, I have received a series of notes which argue that the Revelation is a reiteration of the Olivet prophecy. I shall examine them in this thread

First up, this:

Revelation 1: 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24: 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Notes:

a. “those who pierced him” = Romans (John 19:34-37).

b. “all the tribes of the Land will mourn” = Israel (Matt. 24:30,34) (Zechariah 12:10-14).

On point (a), I will note that 'those who pierced him' includes Gentiles:

Johnn 19:
32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the two men who had been crucified with Jesus, first the one and then the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and blood and water flowed out immediately.
35 And the person who saw it has testified (and his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth), so that you also may believe.

36 For these things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled, “Not a bone of his will be broken.”
37 And again another scripture says, “They will look on the one whom they have pierced.”

The 'they' in this context is clearly the Roman soldiers who were looking at Christ to see if he was dead. They were the ones who pierced him, and it is their inspection of Christ to which these two Old Testament passages are applied.

Now to point (b). The phrase translated 'tribes of the earth' is the Greek phrase PHULAI THS GHS. This means 'families of the earth'. It does not mean (as is claimed here), 'tribes of the land [of Israel]'.

It should be noted that this Greek phrase does not occur in Zechariah 12:10-14 (which you quoted).

In the LXX (the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures), the phrase PHULAI THS GHS is used consistently of the Gentile nations outside Israel - it is not used of 'the tribes of Israel':

Genesis 12:
3 kai euloghsw touv eulogountav se kai touv katarwmenouv se katarasomai kai eneuloghyhsontai en soi pasai ai fulai thv ghv

Genesis 12:
3 And I will bless those that bless thee, and curse those that curse thee, and in thee shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 28:
14 kai estai to sperma sou wv h ammov thv ghv kai platunyhsetai epi yalassan kai epi liba kai epi borran kai ep anatolav kai eneuloghyhsontai en soi pasai ai fulai thv ghv kai en tw spermati sou

Genesis 28:
14 And thy seed shall be as the sand of the earth; and it shall spread abroad to the sea, and the south, and the north, and to the east; and in thee and in thy seed shall all the tribes of the earth be blessed.

Psalm 72:17 (71:17) estw to onoma autou euloghmenon eiv touv aiwnav pro tou hliou diamenei to onoma autou kai euloghyhsontai en autw pasai ai fulai thv ghv panta ta eynh makariousin auton

Psalm 72:17 (71:17) Let his name be blessed for ever: his name shall endure longer than the sun: and all the tribes of the earth shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

Ezekiel 20:
32 kai ouk estai on tropon umeiv legete esomeya wv ta eynh kai wv ai fulai thv ghv tou latreuein xuloiv kai liyoiv

Ezekiel 20:
32 And it shall not be as ye say, We will be as the nations, and as the tribes of the earth, to worship stocks and stones.

This establishes the meaning of the phrase PHULAI THS GHS. It does not refer to the 'tribes of Israel', it refers to the Gentile families of the earth.

The Revelation does not therefore use the phrase PHULAI THS GHS to refer to the tribes of Israel.

When it does refers to the tribes of Israel, it uses the Greek phrase PHULWN UIOS ISRAEL - which means, wait for it, 'families/tribes of Israel'.

Let me know if the Greek isn't displayed in the correct font (it's OLBGRK).

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:49 am

The Greek Font didn't appear, but that's OK. It can be understood.

First of all, the use of the word "tribe" in the Bible is almost exclusively used for Israel. Your use of the Septuagint notwithstanding, the New Testament never uses that word to refer to anyone other than Israel. The OT was written in mostly in Hebrew, so a minor difference in some phrases should be expected.

Second, the meaning of the word "tribe” isn't the main relationship between the Scriptures mentioned. Zechariah 12 is clearly a reference to Israel (which I hold to be the church because grace will be on “Israel” while “Jerusalem” mourns), and anyone can see the clear relationship between this verse and Matthew 24:30 and Rev. 1:7.

Zechariah 12:10-11
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo”.

Matthew 24:30
"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Revelation 1:7
"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."

In any case, this debate is over the relationship between Revelation and The Olivet Discourse, and as far as that goes, the same Greek phrase appears in both Revelation and the Olivet Discourse. We can debate the meaning later.

Matthew 24:30
και τοτε φανησεται το σημειον του υιου του ανθρωπου εν τω ουρανω και τοτε κοψονται πασαι αι φυλαι της γης και οψονται τον υιον του ανθρωπου ερχομενον επι των νεφελων του ουρανου μετα δυναμεως και δοξης πολλης

Revelation 1:7
ιδου ερχεται μετα των νεφελων και οψεται αυτον πας οφθαλμος και οιτινες αυτον εξεκεντησαν και κοψονται επ αυτον πασαι αι φυλαι της γης ναι αμην

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:45 pm

puritan lad wrote:First of all, the use of the word "tribe" in the Bible is almost exclusively used for Israel. Your use of the Septuagint notwithstanding, the New Testament never uses that word to refer to anyone other than Israel.

Thisis irrelevant, because we're dealing with a phrase here, not an individual word.

The OT was written in mostly in Hebrew, so a minor difference in some phrases should be expected.

Not sure what you mean here.

Second, the meaning of the word "tribe” isn't the main relationship between the Scriptures mentioned.

That's true. It's the phrase we need to look at, and I have demonstrated that the phrase is always used in the LXX for Gentile nations - never the tribes of Israel.

I have also demonstrated that when Revelation wishes to refer to the tribes of Israel, it actually uses a Greek phrase which refers to them specifically - PHULWN UIOS ISRAEL ('familes/tribes of the children of Israel').

Zechariah 12 is clearly a reference to Israel (which I hold to be the church because grace will be on “Israel” while “Jerusalem” mourns), and anyone can see the clear relationship between this verse and Matthew 24:30 and Rev. 1:7.

Leaving aside the interpretation of 'Israel' in Zechariah 12, the only relationship between this chapter and Revelation 1:7, is the 'look on him whom they have pierced' phrase (which in John 19:32-37 is applied to Gentiles). This phrase does not occur in Matthew 24:30.

The phrase PHULAI THS GHS occurs in both Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7, but it does not occur in Zechariah 12. For this reason, Zechariah 12 is irrelevant in a discussion of the meaning of this phrase.

In any case, this debate is over the relationship between Revelation and The Olivet Discourse, and as far as that goes, the same Greek phrase appears in both Revelation and the Olivet Discourse.

I agree it does. But it does not occur in Zechariah 12.

We can debate the meaning later.

No, we must determine the meaning before we approach either the Olivet prophecy or Revelation. That is precisely why I left both of those passages out when I listed the uses of PHULAI THS GHS.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:39 am

You identified the following similarities of language between the Olivet prophecy and the seals (my highlighting, for convenience):

6:3-4 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come and see.” Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.

Matthew 24:6-7 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[ these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom…

6: 5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

Matthew 24:7 And there will be famines,

6:7-8 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Matthew 24:7 -8, 21-22 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows… For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Rev. 6:9-11 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Matthew 23: 29-37 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, …
“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, … Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

Rev. 6: 12-17 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Matthew 24
7 :and earthquakes in various places”

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken”

Luke 23:27-30 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!' Then they will begin 'to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”'

Rev. 7: 1-4 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

Matthew 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You assume on the basis of this similarity of language that the prophecy of Revelation 6 is speaking of the same events as the Olivet prophecy.

In doing so, you commit the following errors:

You fail to interpret the symbolism of Revelation 6 in light of the context of the book (especially chapters 1 to 3)
You commit the logical fallacy of the undistributed middle
You fail to acknowledge or explain the presence in Revelation 6 of a number of quotes from, and allusions to, prophecies in the Old Testament which were judgments on Gentile nations (not Israel)

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:52 am

I will now explicate these errors.

You fail to interpret the symbolism of Revelation 6 in light of the context of the book (especially chapters 1 to 3)

The contextual indicators of chapters 1-3, together with the co-texts belonging to certain key passages in Revelation (key passages such as Revelation 11:7, 12:3-4, 7-9, 13-18, 13:1-18, 16:10,13, 17:3, 7-18, together with co-texts such as Daniel 2:40-44, 7:6-8, 19-27), lead to the conclusion that Revelation intends to give a warning and description of events which would come upon and endanger the Christian body during the whole time between the giving of the Revelation and the return of Christ.

From chapters 1-3 of Revelation, we learn the following:

That the Revelation is directed specifically at informing Christians (particularly those in Asia Minor), of the Divine perspective concerning the events and circumstances which they both were experiencing, and would experience in the future.

If the Revelation was supposed to be warning of the Olivet prophecy, it is a stunning oversight that it was neither addressed nor sent to the ecclesia at Jerusalem. It appears to have been revealed to the wrong man, in the wrong place (John on the isle of Patmos), and then addressed and sent to the wrong people (Christians in Asia Minor, rather than in Jerusalem).
Revelation takes symbols which in the Old Testament were used of the enemies of Israel, and applies them to the enemies of the servants of Christ.
Revelation takes symbols which in the Old Testament were used of Israel and the Jews, and applies them to the body of Christ and to the Christians.
Revelation intends to reveal details concerning a time of trial which would come upon the entire OIKOUMENH, not merely the land of Israel

In addition, we find certain phrases used throughout the book of Revelation which indicate that the scope of the prophecy is far greater than simply the land of Israel.

These phrases include:

The four corners of the earth
The four winds of the earth
The Lord of the earth (the passage from Zechariah in the LXX from which this is quoted specifies the Lord of the whole earth)
The kings of the earth
The tribes of the earth
Those who live on the earth (who are also described as 'every nation, tribe, language, and people')

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:14 am

You commit the logical fallacy of the undistributed middle

You correctly identify a similarity of language between the Olivet prophecy and Revelation 6. But your claim that this necessarily indicates that Revelation 6 is a reiteration of the Olivet prophecy is dependent on a logical fallacy.

You commit the logical fallacy of the undistributed middle by assuming that the symbols and phrases common to both the Olivet prophecy and Revelation 6 cannot have any referent other than the Olivet prophecy.

Where there is no explicit reference to an entity, the introduction of that entity becomes assertion. You attempt to introduce the entity of Israel to Revelation 6, purely on the basis of symbols and phrases which are found in the Olivet prophecy.

However, those same symbols and phrase are found in many prophecies other than the Olivet prophecy, and cannot therefore be used to assert the introduction of Israel in Revelation 6. These symbols and phrases do not identify Israel, they identify certain events which may take place in any nation.

Let's see some examples.

Isaiah 13:
1 This is a message about Babylon that God revealed to Isaiah son of Amoz:

9 Look, the Lord's day of judgment is coming; it is a day of cruelty and savage, raging anger, destroying the earth and annihilating its sinners.
10 Indeed the stars in the sky and their constellations no longer shine; the sun is darkened as soon as it rises, and the moon does not shine.

Isaiah 34:
4 All the stars in the sky will fade away, the sky will roll up like a scroll; all its stars will wither, like a leaf withers and falls from a vine or a fig withers and falls from a tree.
5 He says, “Indeed, my sword has slaughtered heavenly powers. Look, it now descends on Edom, on the people I will annihilate in judgment.”

Ezekiel 32:
1 In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the first of the month, the word of the Lord came to me:
2 “Son of man, lament for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him:

7 When I extinguish you, I will cover the sky, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not shine.
8 I will darken all the lights in the sky over you, and I will darken your land, declares the Sovereign Lord.

All of those passages contain symbols which are used both in the Olivet prophecy and in Revelation 6. But none of them refer to Israel. In fact, all of them refer to Gentile nations.

You make the following assocation:

6:7-8 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come and see.” So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Matthew 24:7 -8, 21-22 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows… For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Furth Rider = Death (Deut. 28:26).

Judgments against Israel (Ezekiel 14:21).

Unfortunately this is also an example of the logical fallacy of the undistributed middle.

It is true that Ezekiel 14:21 contains a pronouncement of this judgment on Israel:

Ezekiel 14:
21 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How much worse will it be when I send my four terrible judgments—sword, famine, wild animals, and plague—against Jerusalem to kill both man and beast!

But the same judgment is pronounced on Gentile nations:

Jeremiah 27:
8 But suppose a nation or a kingdom will not be subject to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. Suppose it will not submit to the yoke of servitude to him. I, the Lord, affirm that I will punish that nation. I will use the king of Babylon to punish it with war, starvation, and disease until I have destroyed it.

It cannot be assumed, therefore, that wherever this judgment is referred to it is speaking necessarily of judgment on Israel.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:37 am

You fail to acknowledge or explain the presence in Revelation 6 of a number of quotes from, and allusions to, prophecies in the Old Testament which were judgments on Gentile nations (not Israel)

In Revelation 6, we find the following:

Revelation 6:
12 Then47 I looked when the Lamb opened the sixth seal, and a huge earthquake took place; the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the full moon became blood red;

This great earthquake is found nowhere in the Olivet prophecy. We do find it in the Old Testament, but we do not find it in any passages pronouncing judgment on Israel.

We find it, instead, in a passage pronouncing judgment on a Gentile nation:

Isaiah 13:
11 This is a message about Babylon that God revealed to Isaiah son of Amoz:

13 So I will shake the heavens, and the earth will shake loose from its foundation, because of the fury of the Lord who leads armies, in the day he vents his raging anger.

In the same passage, we find another instance of language found also in Revelation 6:

Isaiah 13:
10 Indeed the stars in the sky and their constellations no longer shine; the sun is darkened as soon as it rises, and the moon does not shine.

Another example:

Revelation 6:
13 and the stars in the sky fell to the earth like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when shaken by a fierce wind.

This is a symbol found nowhere in the Olivet prophecy. We do find it in the Old Testament, but we do not find it in any passages pronouncing judgment on Israel.

We find it, instead, in two passages pronouncing judgment on Gentile nations:

Isaiah 34:
4 All the stars in the sky will fade away, the sky will roll up like a scroll; all its stars will wither, like a leaf withers and falls from a vine or a fig withers and falls from a tree.

Nahum 3:
12 All your fortifications will be like fig trees with first-ripe fruit: If they are shaken, their figs will fall into the mouth of the eater!

This is no reference to the Olivet prophecy. It borrows a symbol from judgments pronounced on Gentile nations, Edom and Assyria.

Another example is in the very next verse:

Revelation 6:
The sky was split apart like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

The simile of the scroll being rolled up appears in the judgment pronouncement against Edom:

Isaiah 34:
4 All the stars in the sky will fade away, the sky will roll up like a scroll; all its stars will wither, like a leaf withers and falls from a vine or a fig withers and falls from a tree.

This is no reference to the Olivet prophecy. It borrows a symbol from judgments pronounced a Gentile nation, Edom.

You note the similarity of language here:

Revelation 6:15-17:
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Luke 23:27-30 And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!' Then they will begin 'to say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”'

“and they (Israel) said to the mountains and to the rocks: Fall on us and hide us…” (Hosea 10:6-8, Luke 23:27-30).

It is true that the prophecy of Hosea uses this imagery:

Hosea 10:
8 The high places of the “House of Wickedness” will be destroyed; it is the place where Israel sins. Thorns and thistles will grow up over its altars. Then they will say to the mountains, “Cover us!” and to the hills, “Fall on us!”

But you fail to identify the fact that whilst this phrase from Hosea is used in the Olivet prophecy and in Revelation 6, other phrases are used in this passage in Revelation 6 which are not used in the Olivet prophecy:

Revelation 6:
15 Then the kings of the earth, the very important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

The phrases I have highlighted appear nowhere in the Olivet prophecy. They do, however, occur in the Old Testament, in a prophecy pronouncing judgment against a Gentile nation:

Isaiah 13:
1 This is a message about Babylon that God revealed to Isaiah son of Amoz:

9 Look, the Lord's day of judgment is coming; it is a day of cruelty and savage, raging anger, destroying the earth and annihilating its sinners.

13 So I will shake the heavens, and the earth will shake loose from its foundation, because of the fury of the Lord who leads armies, in the day he vents his raging anger.

It also borrows from an eschatological prophecy in Isaiah speaking of judgment on men generally:

Isaiah 2:
10 Go up into the rocky cliffs, hide in the ground. Get away from the dreadful judgment of the Lord, from his royal splendor.
11 Proud men will be brought low, arrogant men will be humiliated; the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.
12 Indeed, the Lord who leads armies has planned a day of judgment, for all the high and mighty, for all who are proud—they will be humiliated;

19 They will go into caves in the rocky cliffs and into holes in the ground, trying to escape the dreadful judgment of the Lord and his royal splendor, when he rises up to terrify the earth.
20 At that time men will throw their silver and gold idols, which they made for themselves to worship, into the caves where rodents and bats live,
21 so they themselves can go into the crevices of the rocky cliffs and the openings under the rocky overhangs, trying to escape the dreadful judgment of the Lord and his royal splendor, when he rises up to terrify the earth.

That is the language of Revelation 6:

Revelation 6:
15 Then the kings of the earth, the very important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

It is clear that this passage of Revelation 6 borrows far more from the judgment prophecies against in Isaiah 2 and 13 than it does from the judgment prophecy against Israel in Hosea 10.

The very fact that this compound imagery is used demonstrates that such imagery and allusions cannot be used to determine the identity of the subject of the judgment pronouncements in Revelation 6.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:37 am

I've written a lot here. Please take your time.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:59 am

Fortigurn wrote:I've written a lot here. Please take your time.

I will, one at a time...

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:19 am

No need to rush, take all the time you need.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:58 am

Fortigurn wrote:I will now explicate these errors.
• You fail to interpret the symbolism of Revelation 6 in light of the context of the book (especially chapters 1 to 3)

The contextual indicators of chapters 1-3, together with the co-texts belonging to certain key passages in Revelation (key passages such as Revelation 11:7, 12:3-4, 7-9, 13-18, 13:1-18, 16:10,13, 17:3, 7-18, together with co-texts such as Daniel 2:40-44, 7:6-8, 19-27), lead to the conclusion that Revelation intends to give a warning and description of events which would come upon and endanger the Christian body during the whole time between the giving of the Revelation and the return of Christ.

Can you expound this? Where do we conclude “that Revelation intends to give a warning and description of events which would come upon and endanger the Christian body during the whole time between the giving of the Revelation and the return of Christ?” I'll point out your errors in another thread, since this one is long enough.

Fortigurn wrote:From chapters 1-3 of Revelation, we learn the following:
• That the Revelation is directed specifically at informing Christians (particularly those in Asia Minor), of the Divine perspective concerning the events and circumstances which they both were experiencing, and would experience in the future.

True, they would also experience these things “shortly”, “near”, “quickly”, and “at hand” because they were “about to take place” in the First Century.

Fortigurn wrote:• If the Revelation was supposed to be warning of the Olivet prophecy, it is a stunning oversight that it was neither addressed nor sent to the ecclesia at Jerusalem. It appears to have been revealed to the wrong man, in the wrong place (John on the isle of Patmos), and then addressed and sent to the wrong people (Christians in Asia Minor, rather than in Jerusalem).

Revelation wasn't a “warning” of the Olivet Prophecy because Jerusalem had already been warned many times. (Matthew 3:7-10, 8:11-23, 11:10-24, 12:38-45, Chapters 21-24, etc.) Instead, Revelation was a “prophecy” to the persecuted churches of Asia Minor. They were facing persecution from both Roman (Nero) and “false Jews” (ie, Jews who claimed God's Covenant Blessings based on their linage — See Rev. 2:9-10). The prophecy was meant to “speak edification and exhortation and comfort to” these churches (1 Cor. 14:2). These faithful martyrs were asking, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” (Revelation 6:10). Thus it was delivered to the correct people, not as a warning, but as an encouragement to endure and overcome.

Fortigurn wrote:• Revelation takes symbols which in the Old Testament were used of the enemies of Israel, and applies them to the enemies of the servants of Christ.

True, I just hold that Israel in the NT was the main enemy.

Fortigurn wrote:• Revelation takes symbols which in the Old Testament were used of Israel and the Jews, and applies them to the body of Christ and to the Christians.

Again, this is true. That shows that “the body of Christ and to the Christians” were the true children of Abraham. The others “lie” and were of the “synagogue of satan”. (Rev. 2:9)

Fortigurn wrote:• Revelation intends to reveal details concerning a time of trial which would come upon the entire OIKOUMENH, not merely the land of Israel

Was the entire OIKOUMENH taxed by Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1), or just the Roman Empire? This word is almost never used to describe the entire planet.

Fortigurn wrote:In addition, we find certain phrases used throughout the book of Revelation which indicate that the scope of the prophecy is far greater than simply the land of Israel.

These phrases include:
• The four corners of the earth
• The four winds of the earth
• The Lord of the earth (the passage from Zechariah in the LXX from which this is quoted specifies the Lord of the whole earth)
• The kings of the earth
• The tribes of the earth
• Those who live on the earth (who are also described as 'every nation, tribe, language, and people')

I don't completely disagree, and the Romans were also judged because of this (Nero's suicide and the Roman Civil War.) However, the main thrust of these judgements were on "those who dwell upon the land" (Israel). After all it was Israel alone who was responsible for "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23:35)

I'll address the other segments soon.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:23 am

Fortigurn wrote: These symbols and phrases do not identify Israel, they identify certain events which may take place in any nation.
...
It cannot be assumed, therefore, that wherever this judgment is referred to it is speaking necessarily of judgment on Israel.

I'll grant you this. However, my assertion that Revelation includes a Judgment on Israel isn't based solely on the apocalyptic language used. It is based on the many other evidences, which I will present in another thread soon, (not to mention the least of which are the clear time fram references.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:01 am

puritan lad wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:I will now explicate these errors.
• You fail to interpret the symbolism of Revelation 6 in light of the context of the book (especially chapters 1 to 3)

The contextual indicators of chapters 1-3, together with the co-texts belonging to certain key passages in Revelation (key passages such as Revelation 11:7, 12:3-4, 7-9, 13-18, 13:1-18, 16:10,13, 17:3, 7-18, together with co-texts such as Daniel 2:40-44, 7:6-8, 19-27), lead to the conclusion that Revelation intends to give a warning and description of events which would come upon and endanger the Christian body during the whole time between the giving of the Revelation and the return of Christ.
Can you expound this? Where do we conclude “that Revelation intends to give a warning and description of events which would come upon and endanger the Christian body during the whole time between the giving of the Revelation and the return of Christ?”

Well I did gtive a long list of quotes there.

Fortigurn wrote:From chapters 1-3 of Revelation, we learn the following:
• That the Revelation is directed specifically at informing Christians (particularly those in Asia Minor), of the Divine perspective concerning the events and circumstances which they both were experiencing, and would experience in the future.

True, they would also experience these things “shortly”, “near”, “quickly”, and “at hand” because they were “about to take place” in the First Century.

Some of them, not all of them.

Revelation wasn't a “warning” of the Olivet Prophecy because Jerusalem had already been warned many times. (Matthew 3:7-10, 8:11-23, 11:10-24, 12:38-45, Chapters 21-24, etc.)

So what's the point of repeating the Olivet prophecy in the Revelation, as you say chapter 6 does?

Instead, Revelation was a “prophecy” to the persecuted churches of Asia Minor.

Which is why they needed to know about the destruction of Jerusalem?

They were facing persecution from both Roman (Nero) and “false Jews” (ie, Jews who claimed God's Covenant Blessings based on their linage — See Rev. 2:9-10).

From Revelation 2-3, we find only two churches suffering persecution (Smyrna and Pergamum). The others were subuding their enemies (Ephesus), permitting apostasy (Thyatira, though Pergamum was doing the same also), or succumbing to the temptations of the world and enjoying the easy life (Sardis and Laodicea). There is no evidence that they were all suffering widespread persecution from both Nero and the Jews.

In addition, Philadelphia is assured that they will be kept from the trial which is yet to come on the OIKOUMNEH. What trial was that? It couldn't have been Nero or the Jews (if they were already persecuting the Christians in Asia Minor), and it couldn't have been the fall of Jerusalem. So what was it?

The prophecy was meant to “speak edification and exhortation and comfort to” these churches (1 Cor. 14:2). These faithful martyrs were asking, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” (Revelation 6:10). Thus it was delivered to the correct people, not as a warning, but as an encouragement to endure and overcome.

How many martyrs can you find in Revelation 2-3? I can find one - 'Antipas'.

Fortigurn wrote:• Revelation takes symbols which in the Old Testament were used of the enemies of Israel, and applies them to the enemies of the servants of Christ.
True, I just hold that Israel in the NT was the main enemy.

That's a bit hard to prove, given that the 'main enemy' is the beast, and the beast you acknowledge as Rome.

Fortigurn wrote:• Revelation takes symbols which in the Old Testament were used of Israel and the Jews, and applies them to the body of Christ and to the Christians.
Again, this is true. That shows that “the body of Christ and to the Christians” were the true children of Abraham. The others “lie” and were of the “synagogue of satan”. (Rev. 2:9)

Yes, whoever those 'others' may have been.

Fortigurn wrote:• Revelation intends to reveal details concerning a time of trial which would come upon the entire OIKOUMENH, not merely the land of Israel
Was the entire OIKOUMENH taxed by Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1), or just the Roman Empire? This word is almost never used to describe the entire planet.

I am not interpreting it as the entire planet. I am interpreting it as the Roman empire.

Fortigurn wrote:In addition, we find certain phrases used throughout the book of Revelation which indicate that the scope of the prophecy is far greater than simply the land of Israel.

These phrases include:
• The four corners of the earth
• The four winds of the earth
• The Lord of the earth (the passage from Zechariah in the LXX from which this is quoted specifies the Lord of the whole earth)
• The kings of the earth
• The tribes of the earth
• Those who live on the earth (who are also described as 'every nation, tribe, language, and people')
I don't completely disagree, and the Romans were also judged because of this (Nero's suicide and the Roman Civil War.)

Are these judgments recorded in Revelation?

However, the main thrust of these judgements were on "those who dwell upon the land" (Israel).

The phrase 'those who dwell on the earth' is defined in Revelation as 'every nation, tribe, language, and people'. It's very difficult to interpret that as 'those who dwell upon the land of Israel'.

After all it was Israel alone who was responsible for "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23:35)

'...from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.'

That particular indictment hardly extends into the Christian era, does it?

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:02 am

puritan lad wrote:
Fortigurn wrote: These symbols and phrases do not identify Israel, they identify certain events which may take place in any nation.
...
It cannot be assumed, therefore, that wherever this judgment is referred to it is speaking necessarily of judgment on Israel.
I'll grant you this. However, my assertion that Revelation includes a Judgment on Israel isn't based solely on the apocalyptic language used. It is based on the many other evidences, which I will present in another thread soon, (not to mention the least of which are the clear time fram references.

You'll need to take particular care with this:

Fortigurn wrote:In addition, we find certain phrases used throughout the book of Revelation which indicate that the scope of the prophecy is far greater than simply the land of Israel.

These phrases include:
• The four corners of the earth
• The four winds of the earth
• The Lord of the earth (the passage from Zechariah in the LXX from which this is quoted specifies the Lord of the whole earth)
• The kings of the earth
• The tribes of the earth
• Those who live on the earth (who are also described as 'every nation, tribe, language, and people')

If you are using the time references as your control text, you're going to run into difficulties. The time references cannot be used as an absolute control here.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:23 am

Fortigurn wrote:In Revelation 6, we find the following:
Revelation 6:
12 Then I looked when the Lamb opened the sixth seal, and a huge earthquake took place; the sun became as black as sackcloth made of hair, and the full moon became blood red;
This great earthquake is found nowhere in the Olivet prophecy. We do find it in the Old Testament, but we do not find it in any passages pronouncing judgment on Israel.

??? Try Matthew 24:7. These occurred in Caligula's (A.D. 37-41) and Claudius' (A.D. 41-54) reigns. (Acts 16:26) Josephus reports many earthquakes in A.D. 68 in the midst of the Jewish War. He describes one particularly terrifying quake and lightning storm, remarking,"anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars 4.4.5). Tacitus reports them throughout Rome, also interpreting them as portents of impending divine judgment (Histories, 1.2-3)

Fortigurn wrote:We find it, instead, in a passage pronouncing judgment on a Gentile nation:… It is clear that this passage of Revelation 6 borrows far more from the judgment prophecies against in Isaiah 2 and 13 than it does from the judgment prophecy against Israel in Hosea 10…The very fact that this compound imagery is used demonstrates that such imagery and allusions cannot be used to determine the identity of the subject of the judgment pronouncements in Revelation 6.

Again, all True. It COULD very well be a prophecy against any nation, based on the language above, but isn't. The apocalyptic language used in the NT such as this is almost used exclusively to describe 70 AD. At least we agree that the judgments are symbolic and that the imagery is borrowed from the OT. We also agree that these judgments are used upon the enemies of “God's People”. In the meantime, let me point out the problems with the historicist view.

1.) Audience Relevance: Historicism makes the prophecy totally useless and irrelevant to the original audience, the first century churches of Asia Minor. It was they who were told to read, hear, and keep the words of this prophecy (Rev. 1:3). It was they who were told to calculate the number of the beast (13:18). If, as you claim, “Revelation intends to give a warning and description of events which would come upon and endanger the Christian body during the whole time between the giving of the Revelation and the return of Christ”, then this becomes an impossibility.

2.) Contemporary Expectatation: A First Century Christian, reading this letter, would have never viewed Revelation from a historicist perspective. Time and again Revelation uses time frame references that point to imminent events, events that were about to break upon the world in the First Century.
The first are the Greek words “tachos” and “en tachei”, which mean "quickly, all at once, with all speed, without delay.“

Rev. 1:1 - "...things which must shortly take place"
Rev. 2:16 - "Repent, or else I will come to you quickly"
Rev. 3:11 - "Behold, I come quickly!"
Rev. 22:6 - "...things which must shortly take place."
Rev. 22:7 - "Behold, I am coming quickly!"
Rev. 22:12 - "Behold, I am coming quickly."
Rev. 22:20 - "Surely I am coming quickly."

The Greek word “engus”, which means “near” or “at hand”. John is writing to the seven churches of Asia Minor to prepare them for some cataclysmic event, and this event was to take place very SOON, within a SHORT amount of time.

Rev. 1:3 - "The time is near."
Rev. 22:10 - "The time is at hand."

The Greek word “mello”, which means “about to” or “on the verge of”.

Rev. 1:19 - "Write ... the things that are about to take place."
Rev. 3:10 - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world."

There are nearly a dozen verses in Revelation alone that directly suggest a very near catastrophe, not to mention dozens of indirect verses.
In addition, the contemporary expection is shown by the interpretation of the prophecies. For Ex.

Rev. 7:9-10
"The seven heads are (not “will be”) seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time."

Finally, compare Rev. 14:14-20 with John the Baptist's warning to the Pharisees in Matthew 3:7-12. If that isn't enough to draw the parallel between the Olivet Discourse and Revelation, consider the following.

Matthew 24:21-31
“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. …“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Revelation 7:13-14
“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

How many “great tribulations” are there in the Bible? If John was speaking of another “great tribulation” different from the one in the Olivet Discourse, he failed to say so.