What happened when Jesus was crucified?

[Philip]

Ed: Christianity would have spread like wildfire.

And so it DID spread like wildfire! And attracted by WHAT? The risk that Jesus' fate could well await themselves? The constant risk of beatings, stonings, crucifixion? Yeah, that's sexy stuff. Some supposed loonybins gets himself killed, a person realizes the same fate would be risked, and yet Christians multiply as if someone were giving away bucketloads of cash and the security to protect it. So silly!

Ed: People who have been dead for days don't come back to life. If they did then the miracle wouldn't have been a miracle and Jesus doing it wouldn't have mattered. So no, I personally don't believe that it may be true.

So, you are saying that despite seeing something miraculous that you wouldn't have understood would lead you to refuse to believe it possible? If so many people, espesically those whom knew Jesus intimately, saw Him after being put to death, then they KNEW. And if they didn't see Him, post death, then they are all loony fools, with each risking the very same fate. Paul hates Christians - he's the upcoming "rock star" of the area's Judaism - a relentless, aggressive defender of the faith - and what does He do? He throws it ALL away and joins this "cult" of Christianity, loses all of his connections and prestige, so as to be constantly jailed, beaten and killed.

No belief in miracles - that is, things that are beyond what we know to be physically possible - and yet we see argued here prolifically of a non-existent universe INSTANTLY popping into existence, non-life some how directing itself to become alive? But you buy THESE happened by themselves, uncaused? Or that something uncaused eventually made all this possible? Wow - but these many things you DO believe. Why believe the others were possible, but not the one?

Ed: Wasn't the shroud found to be a forgery from the Late Middle Ages or something? You know, back when every church needed to have a hunk of a saint on display? So if you didn't have Paul's shinbone, John's left thumb, George's testicle, or a tooth from the lion that disemboweled Ringo then you wouldn't get any pilgrims or donations, so you'd be stuck in a dark, crappy little chapel when everyone else was getting a massive Gothic wonder-church?

To compare the rest of your silly list of faked relics (of course there were many such!) to the Shroud is to not know of the exhaustive scientific analysis that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Shroud is no simple medieval fake. However, we're not arguing about a burial cloth here, but a man many saw alive, and for considerable time, after being put to death.

[Byblos]

To be fair though Ken, are they really likely to admit that?

YES!!!

Are you kidding? If you kill a guy and he comes back from the dead to say that you were wrong to do it but he forgives you that's going to make an impression. If he was really wandering around the Levant magically curing diseases, walking on water, resurrecting dead people, and shrugging off crucifixion it would be reasonable to expect him to gain an immediate, gigantic, fanatical following. I'm as skeptical as they come, but I'd damn sure accept Jesus's claim of divinity after watching him conjure a bakery and a school of fish out of thin air or bring a corpse back to life. Normal people can't do that now and they couldn't do it then either. Anybody who can is completely unique, amazing, and kind of terrifying.

For that matter, if he was really performing magic all over the place the Jewish priests wouldn't have doubted his claim and had him crucified. Someone who really, truly, literally had magical superpowers would have inspired awe and amazement in everyone he saw wherever he went. If I'm understanding things correctly the rabbis basically said "This guy can do actual magic and he says he's the son of our god, but he's obviously full of crap so we'd better have him killed to protect the status quo." That's ridiculous. What they'd have actually done is screamed "HOLY CRAP, GOD'S HERE!" and hit their knees.

Remember, the Christian position (at least as I understand it) is that god is the only god. All of those other gods weren't real. Those Roman and Greek and Egyptian priests were worshiping empty thrones, so they didn't have any real magic. But Jesus was the real deal. The only real deal. As far as I know he was the first legitimate miracle man since the OT and he could prove it.

So yes, they'd have admitted it. They wouldn't have had a choice. Christianity would have spread like wildfire.

You may not believe Christ did indeed rise from the dead but you have to admit there is some evidence that it may be true.

People who have been dead for days don't come back to life. If they did then the miracle wouldn't have been a miracle and Jesus doing it wouldn't have mattered. So no, I personally don't believe that it may be true.

You may not believe that Christ rose again but the shroud is pretty hard to ignore. I know a lot of people have claimed it`s a fake, why won`t the church allow tests if it`s real, why won`t the church validate it`s authenticity, all that stuff but there is at least, the suggestion, that Christ existed (very few people doubt that) so where is His body? Why does the shroud match with so many details?

Wasn't the shroud found to be a forgery from the Late Middle Ages or something? You know, back when every church needed to have a hunk of a saint on display? So if you didn't have Paul's shinbone, John's left thumb, George's testicle, or a tooth from the lion that disemboweled Ringo then you wouldn't get any pilgrims or donations, so you'd be stuck in a dark, crappy little chapel when everyone else was getting a massive Gothic wonder-church?

This is the kind of revisionist fiction one is stuck with when one denies history.

[edwardmurphy]

This is the kind of revisionist fiction one is stuck with when one denies history.

You're welcome to correct my many apparent misconceptions.

[abelcainsbrother]

People
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI

[edwardmurphy]

People
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI

That was terrible.

Also, if you want to embed a link you can do the following:

Hit the URL button. You'll get this:

{url}{/url}, only it will be with [ ] instead of { }

Now you have to do some stuff to make it work. The format is as follows:

{url=LINK}TEXT{/url}

Here's an example:

{url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI}This is a terrible song.{/url}

See, that's the proper format, but it didn't work because I used { } rather than [ ]. When I use the correct bracket it looks like this:

This is a terrible song.

Embedded links add pizzazz to your posts.

[abelcainsbrother]

People
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI

That was terrible.

Also, if you want to embed a link you can do the following:

Hit the URL button. You'll get this:

{url}{/url}, only it will be with [ ] instead of { }

Now you have to do some stuff to make it work. The format is as follows:

{url=LINK}TEXT{/url}

Here's an example:

{url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI}This is a terrible song.{/url}

See, that's the proper format, but it didn't work because I used { } rather than [ ]. When I use the correct bracket it looks like this:

This is a terrible song.

Embedded links add pizzazz to your posts.

There is a reason why I don't embed and it because I want all to be able to click on it and see or hear it. When others embed videos I cannot watch them for some reason. It is not hard to click on it and anybody can hear or see it. It was the message of the song that I wanted people to hear based on the discussion and it is evidence that the apostles were not doubters about Jesus rising from the dead.

[Nessa]

People
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI

That was terrible.

Also, if you want to embed a link you can do the following:

Hit the URL button. You'll get this:

{url}{/url}, only it will be with [ ] instead of { }

Now you have to do some stuff to make it work. The format is as follows:

{url=LINK}TEXT{/url

Here's an example:

{url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI}This is a terrible song.{/url}

See, that's the proper format, but it didn't work because I used { } rather than [ ]. When I use the correct bracket it looks like this:

This is a terrible song.

Embedded links add pizzazz to your posts.

It wasn't Apologetix finest moment...

[edwardmurphy]

There is a reason why I don't embed and it because I want all to be able to click on it and see or hear it. When others embed videos I cannot watch them for some reason. It is not hard to click on it and anybody can hear or see it.

Really? So the embedded link I posted didn't work for you? What browser are you using?

It was the message of the song that I wanted people to hear based on the discussion and it is evidence that the apostles were not doubters about Jesus rising from the dead.

You could have just said that in the first place. For future reference, linking a terrible parody of a terrible song is never the right move.

[abelcainsbrother]

People
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI

That was terrible.

Also, if you want to embed a link you can do the following:

Hit the URL button. You'll get this:

{url}{/url}, only it will be with [ ] instead of { }

Now you have to do some stuff to make it work. The format is as follows:

{url=LINK}TEXT{/url

Here's an example:

{url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZTC1xVdGOI}This is a terrible song.{/url}

See, that's the proper format, but it didn't work because I used { } rather than [ ]. When I use the correct bracket it looks like this:

This is a terrible song.

Embedded links add pizzazz to your posts.

It wasn't Apologetix finest moment...

I actually agree but it was the message I thought applied,it is a parody like all there other songs and they nail some,but not others but they still put out a good message most of the time.I use other kinds of music too when it applies,but there's seem to apply most of the time. Music is a powerful tool that can be used to get a message out.

[abelcainsbrother]

There is a reason why I don't embed and it because I want all to be able to click on it and see or hear it. When others embed videos I cannot watch them for some reason. It is not hard to click on it and anybody can hear or see it.

Really? So the embedded link I posted didn't work for you? What browser are you using?

It was the message of the song that I wanted people to hear based on the discussion and it is evidence that the apostles were not doubters about Jesus rising from the dead.

You could have just said that in the first place. For future reference, linking a terrible parody of a terrible song is never the right move.

Does it matter what browser I'm using? I'm just making it as user friendly as possible and I realize we all don't like the same kind of music,but some like it.That is a parody of a popular rock song. You don't like Rock music?

[edwardmurphy]

Does it matter what browser I'm using?

If embedded links don't work for you then yeah, your choice of browser could be a factor.

I realize we all don't like the same kind of music,but some like it.

Fair enough. I'll shut up about it.

That is a parody of a popular rock song. You don't like Rock music?

I don't like parody songs, Christian music, or the Butthole Surfers, so that song hit the trifecta.

And I'm back to shutting up about it...

[abelcainsbrother]

Does it matter what browser I'm using?

If embedded links don't work for you then yeah, your choice of browser could be a factor.

I realize we all don't like the same kind of music,but some like it.

Fair enough. I'll shut up about it.

That is a parody of a popular rock song. You don't like Rock music?

I don't like parody songs, Christian music, or the Butthole Surfers, so that song hit the trifecta.

And I'm back to shutting up about it...

OK Here is one for you you'll probably like better.
Want It Dead or Alive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEJERLtMQaU

[Storyteller]

This is the kind of revisionist fiction one is stuck with when one denies history.

You're welcome to correct my many apparent misconceptions.

Have you read any of the thread bippy did on the shroud?

[EssentialSacrifice]

Wasn't the shroud found to be a forgery from the Late Middle Ages or something?

ed, you're a very smart young man .. do your do diligence before putting it in writing ...

You're welcome to correct my many apparent misconceptions.

http://www.shroud.com/latebrak.htm

this really is some very interesting, ongoing and providentially arrived at conclusions so far ... more to come but the arrow is definitely pointing up for something extraordinary happening in that tomb.

[Nicki]

To be fair though Ken, are they really likely to admit that?

Roman records from Jesus time exist even to today. What was Rome during that time is now the most Christian place on Earth. If the home of the Catholic Church (Roman area) had proof of Jesus rising from the dead I doubt they would be reluctant to admit that.

Until the 300s AD the Romans were very unsympathetic towards Christians - this only changed during that century when the Roman emperor became a Christian. After putting Jesus to death they were very keen to stifle the movement he'd started, hence the soldiers posted in front of the tomb. They certainly wouldn't have recorded anything they knew about the resurrection when that was likely to make Christianity more popular.