My Pastor has gone and done it.

[melanie]

I think it could be a really bad or a really good thing depending on the motivation of the Pastor. If taken on his word that it's to understand Islamic thought and how it's been hijacked by those to further an agenda then I think a lot of good could come of it. Ignorance is damaging, breeds mistrust and leads to all kinds of assumptions.
Now if the motivation is to blend Islam and Christianity, in an attempt to 'unite' the faiths then that is also damaging. There are key theological differences between the two which can't be overlooked
But there is a key distinction;
To learn with an open mind the tenants of a persons faith with the purpose of understanding it is coming from a place of an intellectual pursuit. To understand Islam from an apologetic perspective is in no way endorsing it. It is easy too see from Christianity how easily misunderstood scripture can be taken. There are no shortage of people who wave certain biblical passages around as an example of how evil and barbaric the Christian Faith is. Sadly there have also been no shortage of people who have used the bible to endorse their own evil, barbaric agendas. History is testament to that. There are passages within the bible that we have had to look at from the perspective of culture and audience because if it is viewed through the lens of today, we can not justify it by today's standards. So we earnestly try to inform those that are ignorant that context is the key, and have apologetic arguments to shed light on them.
Islamic theologians disagree just as Christian theologians do. There are differing branches of thought within Islam just as diverse as Christianity.

There are things we could learn about the Islamic faith. From their perspective, I think it's extremely important to have the woman attend the meetings, because it is insight into the nuances of the faith that could be easily lost by just reading the Quran.
It would be no different than a person reading the Old and New Testament for the first time and trying to reconcile difficult passages without the help of someone within our faith to explain.

I think we tend to forget ancient Israelite culture when we are so disturbed by Muhammed marrying such a young girl. Don't get me wrong, it's disturbing. Very disturbing, but so is the marraige traditions of ancient Judiasm.
It was the culture. The culture sucked in regards to such young girls getting married but when you look at ancient cultures across the board it happened.
It was not unusual at all for 12 years old girls to marry or even younger. It was considered in ancient Judaism that when a girl started her menstrual cycle she could be married. Sometimes they were married younger than this but there was no sexual intercourse until, menstruation had began. As we know the average age of menstruation is 12, but 9 still sits within the normal range. It was also not unusual for them to marry men much older.

So the fact the Muhammed had sexual intercourse with his 9 yr old wife is by today's standards pedophilia, which it should be, it's child abuse of the worse kind. But the marriage standard of ancient Israel by today's standard is also pedophilia.
So to say that Muhammed was a pedophile and anyone who follows Islam is endorsing pedophilia is such a one dimensional way to look at it.

I think the better questions are, why when in today's society we understand this custom to be extremely wrong and abuse against children are some factions of this faith still endorsing it?
Why when most Islamic countries no longer marry off their girls so young and haven't done so for a very long time are some countries still advocating that it's okay.
Are the poorer countries with less access to education and diverse theological thinking more prone to be still practicing customs that should be left where they belong, in history.
And the most important question, why in this day and age when we now live by a standard that advocates to protect children are there factions within Islam that are on the rise that seek to back peddle from modern thinking to subject woman and children to practises that are abusive.
Why when society seeks to move forward from ancient barbaric practises are some embracing them?
Can Islamic leaders do more to come down heavily on these ideas?
What can Muslims do as a community to educate and advance such thinking, and what questions need to be addressed that arise from the Quran, that promote, or dispel this kind of thinking?

We can all intellectually assume that most Mulsims don't want their daughters having sex at 9 and would do whatever they can to prevent such, like fleeing countries like Syria when Isis gains a stronghold in their town. Most Muslims are just as outraged by terrorism, keeping in mind that majority of the terrorism is directed at other Muslims.

So what's gone wrong?
How do majority of Muslims see terrorists as hijacking their faith? what does the Quran say? how have they misinterpreted it and misapplied the teachings? How do they reconcile difficult text?
How can the majority of Muslims combat the extreme thinking of the dangerous minority?

To merely think that because deep down their all pedophile, war mongering, liars, hell bent on taking over the world by means of a silent jihad is just too narrow-minded for me and more importantly it does nothing to help the situation but breed fear and misunderstanding.

If this issue of terrorist organisations is ever going to be tackled it has to be done within the faith and outside of it.
We don't have to agree with Islam but understanding how and why these groups are manipulating their members into such extreme thinking is a start. As is gaining a better, more rounded understanding of what Islam means to the average, peaceful Muslim.
And what better way to find out than from the horses mouth. It's gotta be a better option than reading biased, one eyed interpretations of their faith from articles and websites that claim to know the Quran and it's evil agenda better than those that live their faith.
The internet is littered with websites that try to destroy Christianity and take scripture out of context. These biased opinions do a lot of damage to Christianity. How many people come on here quoting lines and rhetoric from such websites. It's feeding people ignorance.

We can't in one breathe see how Christianity is twisted by those that really just don't understand and then not enertain the fact of how easily those mistakes could also be applied to Islam.

It's not about suggesting Islam is the right religion. It's about understanding what faith means to them.

[RickD]

Can someone tell me how "Islamic thought was hijacked by those who want to further an agenda" which is different than what Islam was founded on?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but Wasn't Islam founded by a violent, murdering pedophile, who wrote the Koran based on demonic visions he had?

Aren't the violent Muslims continuing the agenda that the originator of Islam had?

[melanie]

Violence and war is not unique to Islam. Ancient culture much like today is awash with violence, war and military conquest.
Muhammed conquered by military force in the name of Allah.
As did the Israelites in the OT

Now there were in Samaria seventy sons of the house of Ahab. So Jehu wrote letters and sent them to Samaria: to the officials of Jezreel,[a] to the elders and to the guardians of Ahab’s children. He said, 2 “You have your master’s sons with you and you have chariots and horses, a fortified city and weapons. Now as soon as this letter reaches you, 3 choose the best and most worthy of your master’s sons and set him on his father’s throne. Then fight for your master’s house.”

4 But they were terrified and said, “If two kings could not resist him, how can we?”

5 So the palace administrator, the city governor, the elders and the guardians sent this message to Jehu: “We are your servants and we will do anything you say. We will not appoint anyone as king; you do whatever you think best.”

6 Then Jehu wrote them a second letter, saying, “If you are on my side and will obey me, take the heads of your master’s sons and come to me in Jezreel by this time tomorrow.”

Now the royal princes, seventy of them, were with the leading men of the city, who were rearing them. 7 When the letter arrived, these men took the princes and slaughtered all seventy of them. They put their heads in baskets and sent them to Jehu in Jezreel. 8 When the messenger arrived, he told Jehu, “They have brought the heads of the princes.”

Then Jehu ordered, “Put them in two piles at the entrance of the city gate until morning.”

9 The next morning Jehu went out. He stood before all the people and said, “You are innocent. It was I who conspired against my master and killed him, but who killed all these? 10 Know, then, that not a word the Lord has spoken against the house of Ahab will fail. The Lord has done what he announced through his servant Elijah.” 11 So Jehu killed everyone in Jezreel who remained of the house of Ahab, as well as all his chief men, his close friends and his priests, leaving him no survivor.

12 Jehu then set out and went toward Samaria. At Beth Eked of the Shepherds, 13 he met some relatives of Ahaziah king of Judah and asked, “Who are you?”

They said, “We are relatives of Ahaziah, and we have come down to greet the families of the king and of the queen mother.”

14 “Take them alive!” he ordered. So they took them alive and slaughtered them by the well of Beth Eked—forty-two of them. He left no survivor.

15 After he left there, he came upon Jehonadab son of Rekab, who was on his way to meet him. Jehu greeted him and said, “Are you in accord with me, as I am with you?”

“I am,” Jehonadab answered.

“If so,” said Jehu, “give me your hand.” So he did, and Jehu helped him up into the chariot. 16 Jehu said, “Come with me and see my zeal for the Lord.” Then he had him ride along in his chariot.

17 When Jehu came to Samaria, he killed all who were left there of Ahab’s family; he destroyed them, according to the word of the Lord spoken to Elijah.

I'm not a supporter of Islam, I think it's a false religion but I'm not a hypocrite either.
We can justify OT passages of violence, murder, genocide and military conquest by the will of God but we have to maintain that such was the culture of the time. Violent conquests in the name of Relgion are not unique to Islam.

That's why Jesus turned the culture of violence on its head. We have a saviour that promoted peace, sacrifice and humility when he could have opened up a can of whoop a**.
Muslims are deceived by a religion, which is ingrained in ancient idealogy making some very dangerous. Islam isn't going away anytime soon.
I think it's only beneficial to recognise how majority of Muslims are able to incorporate an ancient religion into modern society successfully. To promote mistrust, hatred and hostility towards them is a recipe for disaster. For centuries many Muslims and Christians have been able to live side by side as neighbours.
Personally I'm not too keen on war, back then or now. I don't want to see generations down the track, on both sides bred on hatred and hostility for each other. It will lead to unrest and war much more so than what we see today if this madness doesn't stop.
I want to live with Muslims as my neighbours and I'm not going to let some evil, violent madmen succeed in exactly what they are setting out to do. Create divisions so wide that war is the result.

[RickD]

Violence and war is not unique to Islam. Ancient culture much like today is awash with violence, war and military conquest.
Muhammed conquered by military force in the name of Allah.
As did the Israelites in the OT

The Israelites conquered in the name of Allah?

Please tell me you aren't saying that the Muslim god Allah, is God.

[Kurieuo]

Melanie, have you looked into Islam? How it was founded? Muhammad?

Re: Jewish marriage laws; at least they went through puberty, which naturally means they're at least physically ready to some degree. Though evidently more maturing and the like is needed as I see matters, and parents were the ones who did the giving away. If love is the driving force for all involved, then such could work.

Marrying a girl at 6 years old Melanie. I'm sorry, but if we weren't talking a major world religion, but some small cult I'm sure you'd be absolutely livid. But, because it's Islam and you feel they're a minority, you'll stand in their corner? Sorry, I can't.

Truth should never play second fiddle.
However, you are right, it should be seasoned with grace.
Sometimes though, you need to know when to use compassion and when to hit a nail hard.
Truth is offensive and abrasive, and it should always be strongly stood upon.

Not all nails can be hit on the head compassionately.
Jesus offended lots during his time, and His message offends lots of people still today.
Islam is wrong. It's full of lies. And many are deluded by it. Nice sentiments sadly does square one with God.

That said, we are nonetheless to be gracious, forgiving and even reach out to Muslims.
Christians often just see a Muslim and presume they're a lost, there is no hope. Because God also loves the Muslim and desires us to reach out to them with the Gospel.

True, what I mentioned probably it isn't the best topic to bring up, unless Islam is being given the floor by a Christian church to promote itself. BUT then, I'm actually quite livid at "Christian" leaders who think they can just set aside truth and come together as one happy united family. Such belies the strength of Jesus' words that the world will hate us -- how we should not try to get the world to love us if such means compromising Christ (Matt 10:32-39):

• 32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
  34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
  37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Those words are often ripped out of context and distorted re: "the sword", but in essence Christ is saying never to forsake Him or his teachings for harmony. The nature of truth is divisive, and Christ being the Truth is likewise. At the same time, do be loving and gracious... but without compromising.

Christian2, if you suspect your pastor is causing confusion in his church, and also others have concerns or being mislead into confusion over Islam and Christianity (especially when it seems leaders are unprepared), then perhaps your paster should be directly challenged. Why hasn't he spoken to you about what you wrote, did he even care? That is more concerning to me than what you say on this day that yours truly has organised. Of course, challenge tactfully, but if he becomes resistant do not be afraid to apply the same force he applies with you.

I see two things that need dealing with, with what you presented Christian2. If you want my opinion then I'll give it to you direct and straight up.

1) Primarily, what is your pastor seriously thinking? Is it even a concern to try reach them with the Gospel, or to just give them a platform, hold hands and feel good.
2) Secondarily, what you could say on the day re: Islam so that truth can be known. If you wish to challenge, then challenge. If you wish to be nice, then be nice. Be tactful certainly, sensitive by all means, but I believe direct is best, and know what you want to achieve. Decide before hand what you'll be and approach from that with what you feel is right and true.

Also pray over it. Clearly, it's on your conscience and you feel weighed down by this enough to post here.
I'm sorry if my words here provide little comfort. You must follow what the Holy Spirit has placed on your heart, not your pastor or what is politically correct or considered socially acceptable. Pray over it, ask for guidance.

Now, after saying all the above, I don't have all the details of the situation.
I don't know how serious such is, whether I'm overthinking, over-reacting, but from your original post it sounded quite serious.

[melanie]

Violence and war is not unique to Islam. Ancient culture much like today is awash with violence, war and military conquest.
Muhammed conquered by military force in the name of Allah.
As did the Israelites in the OT

The Israelites conquered in the name of Allah?

Please tell me you aren't saying that the Muslim god Allah, is God.

No Rick I'm not saying that, I could have worded that better.
I think though I was pretty clear in saying that I believe Islam is a false religion ergo a belief in a false God.

[melanie]

Melanie, have you looked into Islam? How it was founded? Muhammad?

Re: Jewish marriage laws; at least they went through puberty, which naturally means they're at least physically ready to some degree. Though evidently more maturing and the like is needed as I see matters, and parents were the ones who did the giving away. If love is the driving force for all involved, then such could work.

Marrying a girl at 6 years old Melanie. I'm sorry, but if we weren't talking a major world religion, but some small cult I'm sure you'd be absolutely livid. But, because it's Islam and you feel they're a minority, you'll stand in their corner? Sorry, I can't.

Truth should never play second fiddle.
However, you are right, it should be seasoned with grace.
Sometimes though, you need to know when to use compassion and when to hit a nail hard.
Truth is offensive and abrasive, and it should always be strongly stood upon.

Not all nails can be hit on the head compassionately.
Jesus offended lots during his time, and His message offends lots of people still today.
Islam is wrong. It's full of lies. And many are deluded by it. Nice sentiments sadly does square one with God.

That said, we are nonetheless to be gracious, forgiving and even reach out to Muslims.
Christians often just see a Muslim and presume they're a lost, there is no hope. Because God also loves the Muslim and desires us to reach out to them with the Gospel.

True, what I mentioned probably it isn't the best topic to bring up, unless Islam is being given the floor by a Christian church to promote itself. BUT then, I'm actually quite livid at "Christian" leaders who think they can just set aside truth and come together as one happy united family. Such belies the strength of Jesus' words that the world will hate us -- how we should not try to get the world to love us if such means compromising Christ (Matt 10:32-39):

• 32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
  34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
  37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Those words are often ripped out of context and distorted re: "the sword", but in essence Christ is saying never to forsake Him or his teachings for harmony. The nature of truth is divisive, and Christ being the Truth is likewise. At the same time, do be loving and gracious... but without compromising.

Christian2, if you suspect your pastor is causing confusion in his church, and also others have concerns or being mislead into confusion over Islam and Christianity (especially when it seems leaders are unprepared), then perhaps your paster should be directly challenged. Why hasn't he spoken to you about what you wrote, did he even care? That is more concerning to me than what you say on this day that yours truly has organised. Of course, challenge tactfully, but if he becomes resistant do not be afraid to apply the same force he applies with you.

I see two things that need dealing with, with what you presented Christian2. If you want my opinion then I'll give it to you direct and straight up.

1) Primarily, what is your pastor seriously thinking? Is it even a concern to try reach them with the Gospel, or to just give them a platform, hold hands and feel good.
2) Secondarily, what you could say on the day re: Islam so that truth can be known. If you wish to challenge, then challenge. If you wish to be nice, then be nice. Be tactful certainly, sensitive by all means, but I believe direct is best, and know what you want to achieve. Decide before hand what you'll be and approach from that with what you feel is right and true.

Also pray over it. Clearly, it's on your conscience and you feel weighed down by this enough to post here.
I'm sorry if my words here provide little comfort. You must follow what the Holy Spirit has placed on your heart, not your pastor or what is politically correct or considered socially acceptable. Pray over it, ask for guidance.

Now, after saying all the above, I don't have all the details of the situation.
I don't know how serious such is, whether I'm overthinking, over-reacting, but from your original post it sounded quite serious.

Have I looked into Islam?
What do you reckon K?
Or because they are a minority, I stand in their corner with some ignorant misplaced notion of compassion?
Just be sure your not mistaking my differing opinion with ignorance. It is a tactic used to question a persons intellectual honesty but I don't think it's very cool. You can question and disagree, but the 'you don't know what your talking about' route is not needed.
I wouldn't think I would have to state this but after this post and a few others in regards to this notion that I am all compassion with no limit, that leads me into ignorance I need to make something very clear.
I am very compassionate and I make no apologies for that. I am also analytical. I read everything I can get my hands on. I am intelligent and well read. I check every source and I never read anything without questioning its legitimacy. So if I disagree with you, regardless of whether I'm right or wrong you rest assured that it's an informed opinion albeit one you may disagree with.

On that note I believe through my studies that you are mistaken in regards to the link you gave about the age of marriage in ancient Jewish culture. You will find the ages that were quoted were referring to males. It is common knowledge that in the Middle East throughout biblical times and across cultures that girls were married on average at about 12, at the onset of menstruation. This was also the case in Judiasm, as stated not only in the Talmud and Tosafot but by theologians and historians. I'm not going to provide links, a quick Google search clearly shows this to be the case. Age 12 is commonly quoted as this is the average age a girl menstuates, but the age was not the indicater but rather the onset of puberty.
As you stated the parents organised the marriage as is the same within Islam.

Melanie, if we weren't talking about a major world religion, but a small cult you'd be livid

Quite frankly I think it's wrong across the board. I have a 12 yr old daughter and if any man tried to get anywhere near her I would relieve him of his testicles.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "I'm standing in their camp". By standing in their camp do you mean I don't think every Muslim is a terrorist, or that I don't think breeding more hatred and suspicion of each other is helpful, or that I don't seemed compelled like majority of Christians to see them as evil incarnate, or that I'm prepared to see them as individuals worthy of respect and love and as neighbours, or that I think that understanding the faith or speaking to Muslims themselves might be a better way to get an idea of what is going on within these terrorist factions rather than presuming that they are all just evil some to a lesser degree than others?
Then yes, pop me in that camp

If you mean that by some assumption that I'm all hearty, lovey dovey that wants to join hands and sing a song of no balls Christianity that thinks that they aren't deceived and that they don't need Jesus and my oestrogen is getting in the way of my brain cells, then that's a camp of your own making that you've put me in.

[IceMobster]

Can someone tell me how "Islamic thought was hijacked by those who want to further an agenda" which is different than what Islam was founded on?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but Wasn't Islam founded by a violent, murdering pedophile, who wrote the Koran based on demonic visions he had?

Aren't the violent Muslims continuing the agenda that the originator of Islam had?

By today's standards, yes he is a pedophile. By then's standards, no he is not.
Where did you get that he had demonic visions?
And so what if he was violent? Christianity was no better as it spread by a sword as well (America, the Crusades (and I am not talking about the Crusades to free the Holy Land,...).

Reminds me of a definition of Christianity on a urban dictionary site: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

See the nonsense?

The same thing that was done by these people who created the definition, you are doing to Islam.

[RickD]

Violence and war is not unique to Islam. Ancient culture much like today is awash with violence, war and military conquest.
Muhammed conquered by military force in the name of Allah.
As did the Israelites in the OT

The Israelites conquered in the name of Allah?

Please tell me you aren't saying that the Muslim god Allah, is God.

No Rick I'm not saying that, I could have worded that better.
I think though I was pretty clear in saying that I believe Islam is a false religion ergo a belief in a false God.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that. I think it's important to clear it up, because this particular pastor may believe that Allah is God. I hope not, but Christian2 should let us know.

[RickD]

IceMobster wrote:

By today's standards, yes he is a pedophile. By then's standards, no he is not.
Where did you get that he had demonic visions?
And so what if he was violent? Christianity was no better as it spread by a sword as well (America, the Crusades (and I am not talking about the Crusades to free the Holy Land,...).

I don't care what time in history it is, a grown man having sex with a 9 year old child, is a pedophile.

As far as the demonic visions, just familiarize yourself with what lead Muhammad to write the Koran. He supposedly heard from an angel named Gabriel. And it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to understand that what "Gabriel" told Muhammad, contradicts scripture. This demon named Gabriel, lead Muhammad to begin a false religion.

Reminds me of a definition of Christianity on a urban dictionary site: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
See the nonsense?

Yes. You seem to be spewing nonsense. If you had even a superficial understanding of how Islam came to be, you'd see.

The same thing that was done by these people who created the definition, you are doing to Islam.

You really don't have any idea about Islam, do you?

[Philip]

I see a morphing of assertions here that need separating.

First off, let's separate MUSLIMS that we should love and care about, from their beliefs and the teachings of the Quran. Let's make no bones about it, the Quran is a Satanically inspired assemblage of writings and Mohammad was undoubtedly an anti-Christ figure. His writings assert a god different from that of the Bible. Period! Which God warns prolifically against and hates! His writings deny the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, deny Jesus was God, and asserts Jesus to be a created being, says He is ONLY a messenger, warns that anyone asserting that Jesus is God's son will incur Allah's curse. All of these deny things the Bible says EVERYONE must believe in so as to be saved. Believing these lies will doom one to eternity apart from God. Is there anything that is unclear about these? Look them up - don't take my word for it. Let's not morph the truth that we are to love Muslims into some perverse apologetic for the Quran as somehow being simply misunderstood and misinterpreted - that the belief that it is evil and an anti-Christ book of writings is somehow reactionary anti-Muslim prejudice and hatred.

Let's also please be clear that the BELIEFS of Muslims and the teachings of the Quran SHOULD be feared and warned against. Not only do the Quran's teachings, taken to heart, doom a person's eternity, but it encourages great evil HERE and NOW! The violence and hatred it teaches IS the reason behind the Islamic terror the world faces - that is, to ANY Muslim who believes and interprets it in such ways. And, obviously, millions of them DO subscribe to these interpretations, thus the enormous world-wide threat that we all SHOULD greatly fear and warn against. WE SHOULD fear ALL Muslims who take the various Islamist interpretations of violence and hatred to heart, as also the teachings and book (the Quran) that inspire them. Those in their own societies should fear such beliefs and their followers as well - the cutting off of limbs for thievery, adultery, beheadings, the horrific treatment of women and on so many levels, the murders of homosexuals. However, we should still love and pray for such people! But ANYONE who states that fearing and warning against the beliefs and actions of Muslims with such sensibilities is some type of irrational prejudice and mere phobic hatred are so out of touch with reality as to be dangerous themselves! Now, I want to be very clear, this is NOT to say that ALL Muslims believe and behave in such a way - millions do not. And we are to love ALL - regardless of their beliefs. But fearing and warning against those of dangerous beliefs and actions is only common sense! The fact that the teachings many such evil beliefs and practices spring from are found in many clear, unspinnable passages in the Quran, is undeniable - here's a few: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... lence.aspx.

As well, there are ongoing and clear instructions for hatred and violence that the Quran clearly advocates - things which are in no way comparable to things asserted to be so in the Bible - not if you understand the context, history, etc. I'd strongly suggest that anyone believing this to get a copy of Paul Coplan's "Is God a Moral Monster" - which brings significant illumination to such misconceptions. As well, just because people CALLING themselves Christians have carried out evil actions does not 1) validate that they are Christians, and 2) it doesn't change the fact that they are going against God's instructions and teachings as to what is sinful behavior.

If someone wants to debate comparisons between things found in the Bible, I suggest you start another thread, as this one is ONLY about Muslim beliefs. Also, there are several such threads already on this.

[RickD]

Philip,

Since you mentioned it, I think it should go without saying, that we can love Muslims without sugar coating Islam. Muslims, just like any other unbeliever(non-Christian) should be shown love.

And I think some people don't understand that in order to show them love, they need to be warned about the path they're following.

I guess it's kinda upsetting to me, that every time we talk about a false religion, we have to bring up the fact that hating an evil, anti-Christ religion, is not the same as hating those caught up in the religion.

Loving Muslims, or anyone else, means they need to know the truth about the most important thing. Their eternal salvation.

Some people build relationships with Muslims. They make friends, and God uses those friendships to open up the Muslims to the gospel.

Muslims need To know Christ. They need to be shown the truth, in love. Both the truth, and love are crucial.

[Kurieuo]

Melanie, have you looked into Islam? How it was founded? Muhammad?

Re: Jewish marriage laws; at least they went through puberty, which naturally means they're at least physically ready to some degree. Though evidently more maturing and the like is needed as I see matters, and parents were the ones who did the giving away. If love is the driving force for all involved, then such could work.

Marrying a girl at 6 years old Melanie. I'm sorry, but if we weren't talking a major world religion, but some small cult I'm sure you'd be absolutely livid. But, because it's Islam and you feel they're a minority, you'll stand in their corner? Sorry, I can't.

Truth should never play second fiddle.
However, you are right, it should be seasoned with grace.
Sometimes though, you need to know when to use compassion and when to hit a nail hard.
Truth is offensive and abrasive, and it should always be strongly stood upon.

Not all nails can be hit on the head compassionately.
Jesus offended lots during his time, and His message offends lots of people still today.
Islam is wrong. It's full of lies. And many are deluded by it. Nice sentiments sadly does square one with God.

That said, we are nonetheless to be gracious, forgiving and even reach out to Muslims.
Christians often just see a Muslim and presume they're a lost, there is no hope. Because God also loves the Muslim and desires us to reach out to them with the Gospel.

True, what I mentioned probably it isn't the best topic to bring up, unless Islam is being given the floor by a Christian church to promote itself. BUT then, I'm actually quite livid at "Christian" leaders who think they can just set aside truth and come together as one happy united family. Such belies the strength of Jesus' words that the world will hate us -- how we should not try to get the world to love us if such means compromising Christ (Matt 10:32-39):

• 32“Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33“But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
  34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
  37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Those words are often ripped out of context and distorted re: "the sword", but in essence Christ is saying never to forsake Him or his teachings for harmony. The nature of truth is divisive, and Christ being the Truth is likewise. At the same time, do be loving and gracious... but without compromising.

Christian2, if you suspect your pastor is causing confusion in his church, and also others have concerns or being mislead into confusion over Islam and Christianity (especially when it seems leaders are unprepared), then perhaps your paster should be directly challenged. Why hasn't he spoken to you about what you wrote, did he even care? That is more concerning to me than what you say on this day that yours truly has organised. Of course, challenge tactfully, but if he becomes resistant do not be afraid to apply the same force he applies with you.

I see two things that need dealing with, with what you presented Christian2. If you want my opinion then I'll give it to you direct and straight up.

1) Primarily, what is your pastor seriously thinking? Is it even a concern to try reach them with the Gospel, or to just give them a platform, hold hands and feel good.
2) Secondarily, what you could say on the day re: Islam so that truth can be known. If you wish to challenge, then challenge. If you wish to be nice, then be nice. Be tactful certainly, sensitive by all means, but I believe direct is best, and know what you want to achieve. Decide before hand what you'll be and approach from that with what you feel is right and true.

Also pray over it. Clearly, it's on your conscience and you feel weighed down by this enough to post here.
I'm sorry if my words here provide little comfort. You must follow what the Holy Spirit has placed on your heart, not your pastor or what is politically correct or considered socially acceptable. Pray over it, ask for guidance.

Now, after saying all the above, I don't have all the details of the situation.
I don't know how serious such is, whether I'm overthinking, over-reacting, but from your original post it sounded quite serious.

Have I looked into Islam?
What do you reckon K?
Or because they are a minority, I stand in their corner with some ignorant misplaced notion of compassion?
Just be sure your not mistaking my differing opinion with ignorance. It is a tactic used to question a persons intellectual honesty but I don't think it's very cool. You can question and disagree, but the 'you don't know what your talking about' route is not needed.
I wouldn't think I would have to state this but after this post and a few others in regards to this notion that I am all compassion with no limit, that leads me into ignorance I need to make something very clear.
I am very compassionate and I make no apologies for that. I am also analytical. I read everything I can get my hands on. I am intelligent and well read. I check every source and I never read anything without questioning its legitimacy. So if I disagree with you, regardless of whether I'm right or wrong you rest assured that it's an informed opinion albeit one you may disagree with.

On that note I believe through my studies that you are mistaken in regards to the link you gave about the age of marriage in ancient Jewish culture. You will find the ages that were quoted were referring to males. It is common knowledge that in the Middle East throughout biblical times and across cultures that girls were married on average at about 12, at the onset of menstruation. This was also the case in Judiasm, as stated not only in the Talmud and Tosafot but by theologians and historians. I'm not going to provide links, a quick Google search clearly shows this to be the case. Age 12 is commonly quoted as this is the average age a girl menstuates, but the age was not the indicater but rather the onset of puberty.
As you stated the parents organised the marriage as is the same within Islam.

Melanie, if we weren't talking about a major world religion, but a small cult you'd be livid

Quite frankly I think it's wrong across the board. I have a 12 yr old daughter and if any man tried to get anywhere near her I would relieve him of his testicles.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "I'm standing in their camp". By standing in their camp do you mean I don't think every Muslim is a terrorist, or that I don't think breeding more hatred and suspicion of each other is helpful, or that I don't seemed compelled like majority of Christians to see them as evil incarnate, or that I'm prepared to see them as individuals worthy of respect and love and as neighbours, or that I think that understanding the faith or speaking to Muslims themselves might be a better way to get an idea of what is going on within these terrorist factions rather than presuming that they are all just evil some to a lesser degree than others?
Then yes, pop me in that camp

If you mean that by some assumption that I'm all hearty, lovey dovey that wants to join hands and sing a song of no balls Christianity that thinks that they aren't deceived and that they don't need Jesus and my oestrogen is getting in the way of my brain cells, then that's a camp of your own making that you've put me in.

Mel, every so often you seriously come off a lot like the PC police.
That's what I mean by you standing in their corner (hopefully not their camp), because you gave a quite typical PC-like response to Islam as I'd expect in Australia. PC cripples truth. PC isn't compassionate but wolves clothing. I hate even a touch of PC. PC distorts truth and makes out others to be mean, cold hearted and the like. It stops people being real and authentic.
You may not consider yourself PC, and I could be overly sensitive to it due to my distaste.
But, if I'm wrong then I feel you often bark up the wrong tree unnecessarily sometimes with a more PC rant.

To interrupt my thoughts here though, you do know I love you though right?
Whatever I say. I'm just speaking my mind and what I feel, but nonetheless respect you greatly.

As for Islam, you'd know that there are two major sects within Islam.
One wouldn't want living aside anyone, the other I really don't care too much about.
This idea that you have militant extremist Muslims and then peace-loving ones, no. That's a Western concoction so our country after the US can do whatever the hell it likes without public scrutiny.

West Gov: "Oh, they're extremist." Society: "Oh ok, well we won't judge. Arrest them, shoot them if you have too!" Western Gov: "Works every time."

There is a certain irony to it all though. Because, it means "the extremists" (whoever they are) aren't loved. We say, not all Muslims are that way, and just want to accept and dialogue with the "nice" Westernised ones. Do that, and we're not in communication or on the same planet even as true Islam. Rather we're just playing up to and being played by our fancies. As the Turkish PM Erdogan said, "The term “moderate Islam” is ugly and offensive — Islam is Islam".

Muhammad was a great military leader and I find much offensive to the grace and love-filled teachings Christ taught. Ignoring the people who represent Islam or Christianity, when I look at the foundations to each, the two really couldn't be more different from each other. One teaches make the infidel submit, pay tribute or kill, the other teaches lay down your life for your enemy. That is why I asked if you'd taken a look... it wasn't meant to be disparaging.

In any case, perhaps we just thinking bad of each other here.
I mean, I know, I think I know, I'd hope that you wouldn't be all cordial and put the Gospel second place with Muslims in exchange for a cordial friendship. The second is what I see a lot of Christians in the West wanting to do, Christian2's pastor perhaps a perfect illustration, and such is far from loving nor what Christ would want.

I can only imagine what you'd be like with a Muslim friend who differs greatly. I'd hope you'd try to reach out to them, even if it meant ruffling their feathers. But, you know, please correct me if I'm wrong, you've previously said you believe Muslims can be saved too -- so I'm not sure how Evangelical-like you'd be. I see evangelism as very important, for it's what offers people the water they need (metaphorically speaking of course). If Christ need not have died, then I'm sure He would have drank a different cup than the one He did.

So given your previous statements re: who is/isn't saved, which I may be recalling with distortion, I'm not sure how far you grasp the seriousness of our condition, that it doesn't matter how nice or loving God is because God is equally righteous and pure. There is only one way that's been revealed. Christ is that Way, the Truth and the Life. I can't drop that truth for more Humanistic sentiments.

Putting aside the marrying a 6 year old issue with Muhammad (which was just a valid issue I thought Christian2 could have raised with sensitiveness while pushing the truth)... but in relation to you, my thoughts are like, does Mel want to ignore the serious doctrinal errors, which have eternal consequence and value, over just being happy, hugging and the estrogen thing as you put it (which some here think I've got lots of, pfft ).

I didn't mean to insult or put you down, but there are some things with your beliefs, more where I detect you coming from, that does get my irk. As I'm sure vice-versa. You know, I can't even watch the media in Australia much anymore. Shows like The Project are the worst, how they try to deceive the masses with their presentations. ABC also is most definitely not neutral, though it's the one I'll watch here and there just to keep an ear to what's happening. Australia is most definitely a Humanist country now, and it's that Humanism that I often feel shining through you Mel sometimes at the laying down of Christian truths. Humanism in bankrupt and can only provide placebo compassion and meaning.

As for Christ, we both would agree that Christ would have us lay down our life for others no matter who they are, to save them. You know, I wouldn't like to, but I'd be prepared to lose my head and may very well one day for offending with the truth of Christ. I'd consider such a blessed ending, dying for Christ and others for His sake, as Christ died for me. Words are easier said though, but I do strongly feel such...

[IceMobster]

IceMobster wrote:

By today's standards, yes he is a pedophile. By then's standards, no he is not.
Where did you get that he had demonic visions?
And so what if he was violent? Christianity was no better as it spread by a sword as well (America, the Crusades (and I am not talking about the Crusades to free the Holy Land,...).

I don't care what time in history it is, a grown man having sex with a 9 year old child, is a pedophile.

As far as the demonic visions, just familiarize yourself with what lead Muhammad to write the Koran. He supposedly heard from an angel named Gabriel. And it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to understand that what "Gabriel" told Muhammad, contradicts scripture. This demon named Gabriel, lead Muhammad to begin a false religion.

Reminds me of a definition of Christianity on a urban dictionary site: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
See the nonsense?

Yes. You seem to be spewing nonsense. If you had even a superficial understanding of how Islam came to be, you'd see.

The same thing that was done by these people who created the definition, you are doing to Islam.

You really don't have any idea about Islam, do you?

Enlighten me. Possibly through not using sarcasm.

[Christian2]

You can also mention this recent happening in Pakistan:
Bill banning child marriage fails in Pakistan after it’s deemed ‘un-Islamic’

And if they avoid your question on Aisha, quote Bukhari 5.58.234.

Muslim men want to do what Muhammad did -- marry children -- some of these die as a result and some are so damaged they cannot have children.

Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 58 :: Hadith 234

Narrated Aisha:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

Aisha never had children. Is this the reason?

I didn't pick up on that, but Muhammad came to her when she was nine. Married at 6, sex at 9.

Bukhari 7.62.88 is more clear: "The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)."

It is absolutely abhorrable. My daughter is almost 9. You know, Islam and even Muhammad is quite revolting and this is kind of hidden from Western people. They really ought to know things like this, rather than the shiny exterior form of a more "moral" form of Islam they market in the West.

But, then, for whatever reason maybe you should respect the pastor of your church.
If I was someone non-affiliate and in the audience, and prepared, then this is a stick I'd poke.
I don't consider any truth off limits. If I knew the pastor, then I'd probably discuss with him first.
If he reacted negatively to me even mentioning such to him, then his agenda is obvious and I'd lose all respect.

I emailed my Pastor sometime well before Christmas if he would be interested in hearing what I learned about Islam after spending about 14 years now studying it and speaking to Muslims on discussion boards. I noted some of the subjects I would cover.

He invited me to a meeting. I emailed him some of what I learned -- maybe 8 or 10 emails on various subjects.

He said I needed to speak to Muslims face-to-face and keep interrupting me when I was trying to make a point. He didn't like the idea of talking to people who were anonymous ("you don't know what they are. They might be Buddhists trying to make you mad." It was obvious he had not read my emails.

The meeting was a disaster so I left.