Can of worms...

[Silvertusk]

Thank you for your response Jac, K and BW (RickD - no apology necessary, I like banter - just wanted to get the thread back on track)

I totally see what you are all saying. I done a fair bit of research in this over the last few days and this is what I have discovered.

Using this link http://godswordtowomen.org/Preato2.htm

There are three possible interpretations

1) It is a declarative statement from Paul.
This could even mean that Paul was being rather sexist here and just agree with the culture of the time and meant it universally to tie in with Rabbinic Jewish Tradition - or there was a problem with women in Corinth at the time and Paul wanted to address that specifically. If it is a declarative statement then the latter seems likely to fit in more with Paul's character because in most of his letters he extols women and does not come across as sexist.

2) As Jac says, it is an interpolation
These words are not consistent with Paul's character of style of writing - especially when you consider that in every instance when Paul talks about the law - he says "As it is written" and then goes onto directly quote scripture. This does not happen here - so this does not seem to be Paul's writing. Also this blatantly contradicts 1 Corinthians 11 where Paul states that it is okay to pray and prophesy. This also contradicts what Paul is saying in Galatians 2:26-29

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Being an interpolation however, does not sit comfortably with me as I am more inclined to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. So I prefer the third option - which is that Paul was quoting a Corinthian quote or slogan straight back at them and then rebuking them in verse 36 - the NLT puts is like this

36 Or do you think God’s word originated with you Corinthians? Are you the only ones to whom it was given?

With this in mind and referring back to what was said about option 2 - this is not Paul's writing but a quotation and Paul was then rebuking them. I like this idea.

As with the quote in Timothy - this link really gives a good interpretation of this

http://godswordtowomen.org/fees.htm

Scroll down to the bit that starts - Scripture is Finally Explained--I Timothy 2:11-14

I think this explains this passage very well personally. Also this you tube video covers it quite well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDHm7up ... WJRlgZ7eZg

It does make me think that if these interpretations are right then a lot of damage has been done by the church with regards to woman's ministry and a lot of potential for teaching and spreading the Gospel has been lost. Remember even Genesis 3:16, which a lot of anti-women minsters like to quote - was meant as a punishment from God, not the norm.

What do people think?

[Jac3510]

I appreciate the deeper discussion of authentein in your link, ST. I'll have to look into that more. I confess that I get a bit skeptical when people start appealing to highly specific location-driven contexts for interpretations of passages (which usually seems to happen around contentious passages, no less), but the point is well taken all the same. I would, though, like to offer something I wrote a very long time ago on the Timothy passage for your consideration (as I certainly do not consider than an interpolation):

• The important part of our first passage is 2:11-12: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” A few notes about translation are in order. First, the words “quietness” and “silent” are exactly the same word in Greek (hesuchia), but neither English rendition properly captures the idea. This is evident by the way it is used in 2 Thess. 3:12, which says, “Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down [hesuchia] and earn the bread they eat.” Here, Paul was talking about men refusing to work and is basically telling them to lead quiet lives of work and respect, to earn their wages and pay for their own way. The idea, then, is to be respectful and not contentious.
  
  Second, the word “learn” (Greek: manthano) is directly related to the word “disciple” (mathetes). The idea here does not seem to be the learning of abstract biblical facts, as if one were preparing for a game of Bible trivia. Rather, it is referring to the discipleship process. This in and of itself is an extremely important point, as Paul’s idea of discipleship was hardly encompassed by a thirty minute sermon on Sunday morning and an hour long Bible study during the week! Discipleship was a matter of deep commitment and submission in which one learned to live out their faith. We will talk more about that in another post.
  
  These two facts alone drastically change our understanding of this passage. Paul is not talking about women keeping their mouth shut during a worship service. He is taking about women submitting to the discipleship process. When disputes arose, as they commonly do, women were to step aside in submission. This is confirmed when Paul goes on to say that women are not to teach men or have authority over them. Notice my rendering. It is likely that the words “to teach” and the word “to have authority over” share the same direct object: men. Women certainly are allowed to teach (we can list biblical examples all day long of this). In the immediate context, though, this “teaching” refers to the discipleship process. Even then, it is not the mere discipleship process Paul has in mind, but that part of the process that requires the one party to submit to the other. The issue here is actually, then, one of headship. . . .
  
  In closing, [this passage does not prohibit] women from sharing the Gospel with men or with women. It does not forbid women from offering their own insights or thoughts on the Word of God or from sharing testimony as to what God has done in their lives. What [it] do[es] prohibit is women exercising final spiritual authority over men.
  
  It is difficult to know exactly how this applies in today’s culture. Paul does not give an explicit list of do’s and don’ts. Some argue that tongues and prophecies are no longer present in the church, and if so, it seems this entire discussion is moot. Further, it is unlikely that the first century church meetings operated in the same way ours does today (i.e., thirty minutes of music followed by announcements and a thirty minute sermon). Still further, when Paul wrote these words, the New Testament was not yet complete, and so doctrinal matters could not be resolved by pointing to what the apostles had already said. The words of elders had to be followed on these points. To further complicate the matter, Paul often taught the churches how to live in the social order they found themselves, rather than how to revolutionize it. For instance, he taught slaves to obey their masters. That does not mean that he condoned slavery! A final philosophical problem is found in the fact that Paul certainly had a generally different system of ethics than we do. He would not have been focused on the question, “Is this wrong” as we are, but rather, “How would a mature, virtuous Christian live?” That system of ethics, called “virtue ethics” assumes that to be moral is to act in accordance with the proper order of nature. In that case, we have to strive to understand the place of men and women in relationship to each other, society, the church, etc. None of these things are immediately clear.
  
  We should not use these passages, then, to forbid any woman from sharing what God has given to her to share. We should simply recognize that God has ordained the husband as the spiritual head of the household, and as such, women are, in some sense, not to be in spiritual authority over men. We should be open to all people’s thoughts and views of Scripture, regardless of gender, because at the end of the day, ultimately, it is to Christ that we submit.

[Silvertusk]

Thank you Jac - That is another very interesting interpretation - one definitely worth considering. However I still think the historical context stands in this one as well - as Ephesus was a pagan centre and was heavily influenced by the goddess Diana and her temple. It seemed to be that the women therefore in that place still had to shake of that influence where they lorded in over men in their temples and gave teachings that were false. I think Paul was dealing with that influence. If this is indeed the case then it is not a universal law that the Bible teaches which so many have used for their own agenda to prevent women from positions of authority in the church.

[PaulSacramento]

The cultural context of 1Corinthians 14 tells us that the church in Corinth was having some issues with, well, loud mouth women, LOL !
It may sound politically incorrect but that doesn't make it incorrect.
Paul did come from a people in which women did NOt speak in the synagogue and some comment on that as why Paul said this BUT I think there is more and that more is that the women in Corinth we probably of Pagan background and in what they USED to be used to, they probably DID talk, as much as they wanted because the patron goddess was Aphrodite, a female deity.
I think that Paul was addressing the very real issue of pagan customs clashing with the judeo-christian ones that Paul was trying to implement.

[PaulSacramento]

We often forget that Paul wrote specific letters to specific people in regards to specific situations that He wanted addressed, even though he also include many general views and theology in them as well.

[abelcainsbrother]

Remarkably, 1 Co 14:34 comes right after speaking in different languages in the church or unknown language. Paul then writes and note the context:

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women (wives) keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
1Co 14:35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
1Co 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. NASB

It is apparent form 1 Co 14:1-32 something was going amiss in the Corinthian church and then verse 33 ( see above). Now read verse 36 and 37. The context indicates a lot of disruption going on because of the language gift and from this it is a safe deduction that the women at that time were overusing that gift and making vows that they were prophets or on the other hand Christian wives were asking questions during the church service of that era where there would have been a lot of singing, tongue speakers, tongue interpreters, teachings, and prophetic gift displayed. Add to the mix - asking questions - maybe a bit of both. The whole Corinthian church at that time was a mess -- must of been chaos...

Looks like Paul had a rough time straitening this mess out and he told the married women not to make a scene or spectacle out of the church service but go home and bother their husbands instead - for some reason that makes sense to me. Maybe Paul lost his cool in the letter, like we all do from time to time.

Notice that He did not address the single gals in the church, just the married ones. It was like Paul was being polite but holding back saying this outright: shut up and go home and bug your husbands and talk in unknown langues to them there not here - naw nanan na...
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I agree with this biblical perspective. People overlook how many problems the church at Corinth had that he was addressing in his letter. It had many problems it was a chaos situation and you could not have real church because of these problems women were talking during the service like gossip interrupting the church service and Paul was telling them to stop interrupting the church service and to wait until they get home to gossipp,talk,etc interrupting the church service.

He was not saying women cannot preach or teach in church like it seems,he was telling them during the church service you cannot be interrupting the church service iterrupting the chuch service acting like you are the minister,you are interrupting the minister in church with your talking during church,he was saying wait until you get home if you want to discuss it,don't do it in church.

Read the paragraph that is before 1st Corinthians Chapter 1 starts before Chapter 1 and realize this church had many problems Paul was adressing.

[EssentialSacrifice]

You know, reading through this thread, I had a thought of the importance of women in the Gospel. They were the bulwark of Jesus' ministry providing food and money for their collective subsistence. They provided faith and perseverance only one man among the apostles could duplicate throughout the waning hours of Christ's ministry and death. They were the ones who found him gone from the sepulcher, they were the ones who announced His resurrection and they were the ones to bolster the faith and grit of the men who ran, who hid and were very afraid of the consequences for them that Christ placed on their tables for affiliating with Him.

Honestly, the women of the NT have every bit the role to Christianity’s spread and because of their unwavering support, perhaps they have more to do with it. Certainly more than most give them credit for.

The women have always run towards Jesus.

So it doesn't really matter to me what the OT verses have to say, They were for a different people, different established social moray than apparently the very trusted and heavily relied upon women of the NT.

Here are just a few … literally just a few of the important women of the NT.

Anna …

She was a prophetess (see the story of Huldah for more about the title of prophetess) (Luke 2:36);
She prophesied of the babe Jesus to all "...them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem" (Luke 2:38).

What we can learn from her:
We are never too old to serve the Lord or to bear witness of Christ;
Being worthy to enter and serve in the Lord's temple entitles us to many blessings and privileges-- like the honor Anna had to behold the Christ child in the temple for the first time;
Just because a woman doesn't have a husband (or children) doesn't mean that she isn't entitled to the same blessings and privileges as other men and women;
God cares about women, especially widows;
Elderly women can find ways to participate in the gospel work, even if it is just fasting and praying;
God blesses those who serve him faithfully.


Claudia …

She was with Paul in Rome;
At the end of his epistle Paul sent Timothy greetings from several of the saints who were with him in Rome and she was included among them. Paul wrote, "... Eubulus greeth thee and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren." (2 Tim. 4: 21);
She had not deserted Paul like so many of his close friends and followers had at this time (2 Tim. 4: 10-11);


Damaris …

What we can learn from her:
If we patiently and faithfully search after truth, we will be able to recognize it and believe it when we find it;
All women should be seekers of the the truth;
When we find the truth we need to have the faith and courage to follow it, regardless of who is mocking or criticizing us;
Understanding the true nature of God is the basis for any strong testimony.

Elizabeth …

What We Can Learn From Her Story:
Women can receive divine inspiration about who their children are and what their missions are in this life even before they are born;
Women are entitled to the gift of prophecy and to be filled with the spirit of the Holy Ghost;
If the Lord wills it, even women who are physically unable to bear children will;
God knows when every child needs to be born on this earth and to which parents. Sometimes that means that women have to wait a long time for the children they were foreordained to be the mothers of;
God always gives us multiple witnesses to attest to the truth and divinity of what he tells us;
God sends people before us that prepare the way for us to accomplish our divine missions.

Lydia…

She gathers with other women outside of the city walls of Phillipi near the river side"where prayer was wont to be made." (vs. 13);
She is described as one who "worshiped God" and "whose heart the Lord opened"even before she heard Paul's message (vs. 14);
She hears Paul and Silas preaching to the women gathered at the river and "she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." (vs.14);
She and her whole household are baptized, making her the first Christian convert on the European continent (vs. 15);
After she is baptized she opens her home to Paul and Silas and tells them "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. (vs.15)"
Later, after Paul and Silas have been beaten (vs. 16-23), thrown in prison (vs. 24), survive an earthquake that opens the doors of their prison (vs. 25-28), and convert and baptize the prison keeper and his whole household (vs. 29-36) they return to Lydia's house before they continue on their journey to Thessalonica (vs.40).

Lois …

She was the grandmother of Timothy, who was one of the apostle Paul's most trusted assistants. Paul calls Timothy his “son in the faith” (1 Tim. 1: 2, 18; 2 Tim. 1: 2);
She has strong, pure faith, Paul tells Timothy to remember "the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother..." (II Timothy 1:5);
Sometimes we have to be willing to stand alone in our faith;
We have a sacred responsibility to teach our children and grandchildren the gospel;
Being a mother/grandmother has far reaching consequences. One of the greatest legacy we can leave behind is children who are good, strong and faithful;
Each member of the church (unless they are converts) owes so much to the person/people in their family history who had the faith and courage to accept and live the gospel of Jesus Christ.

http://www.womeninthescriptures.com/p/n ... women.html

[Byblos]

How PC of you ES, a Catholic talking about women in the Bible and not even mentioning Mary. Love it!

[RickD]

How PC of you ES, a Catholic talking about women in the Bible and not even mentioning Mary. Love it!

For you Byblos, and ES too.

I know how you guys need your Mary "fix". Just tryin to help a couple of brothers out.
http://youtu.be/pwp1CH5R-w4

[DBowling]

Here is a link to a series of articles concerning Women and Christianity that I found a number of years ago. This site approaches the topic from an Egalitarian perspective.
http://www.doxa.ws/social/Women/women_index.html

Two of the articles that I found particularly interesting were:
1. Let the Women Speak in the Church
http://www.doxa.ws/social/Women/speak.html

2. Not Permitted to Teach?
http://www.doxa.ws/social/Women/teach.html

In Christ

[IceMobster]

Concerning 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and the verse where it says that women should never be teachers (too lazy to look it up now ) ,
thees verses captured my attention as well and so I went to ask a PhD in theology to explain it to me.

He said that it is how it was done in that time. It represents the moral codex which was to be upheld concerning the position of women in society and such verse is irrelevant in that sense on today's life. Of course, it is relevant in the sense of historicity -- knowing how it was done back then (duh).