Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
There was an interesting re-enactment of an exchange Lewis and Tolkien had together.
It's a bit wooden like, but nonetheless an interesting back and forward.
Are all myths fiction and beautiful lies, fairy tales?
Some interesting points Tolkien makes to Lewis are:
We've accepted that all myths are lies, because we've been duped into accepting the lie of Materialism
Materialism, that there is no supernatural order, we're in a world of mere matter, physical facts devoid from metaphysical truth.
They're the ones who have come up with a false myth, their world doesn't exist, it's a figment of their imagination.
Fine, but a problem is they've convinced us that only their myth is true: three dimensions, five senses, four walls.
The four walls of Materialism, are the four walls of a prison. And the Materialists are our jailers.
They've put us in a prison with four walls, they don't want us to see what's beyond those four walls. Don't want us to discover what's outside their narrow philosophy.
Worse than that, they think any attempt to escape from the prison is an act of treason!
Lewis asks, "wouldn't it be an act of treason against rationality to believe otherwise?"
Tolkien responds:
How can it be wrong for a prisoner to think of things that exist, other than walls and jailers. Doesn't the fact that we can think of things outside the walls, suggest perhaps that things do actually exist outside those walls? After all, if the prison really is all that there is, then how is it that we can picture things that exist beyond the prison? This is where myths come in. Myths exist outside the prison. Myths allow us to escape from the prison, or if we're not able to escape at the very least they allow us to catch a fleeting but powerful glimpse of the beauty that lies beyond the walls.
I get the impression that more than considering all myths to be unreal, Materialists generally (not all, but most) implicitly consider myths to be unvaluable as well -- a cheap thrill, if that. The thing is, I think for most myths, whether or not they are real isn't important, as a good myth undoubtedly is full of truths.
"Lies" I feel sums up the attitude pretty well. There are some good things that can come from a materialist attitude -- a lot of New Age woo really is just lies, a mental snake oil, and taking a materialist approach is a pretty safe way to avoid all that. But the idea that myths are principally deceptive I think literally does trap those who believe that.
Kurieuo wrote:There was an interesting re-enactment of an exchange Lewis and Tolkien had together.
It's a bit wooden like, but nonetheless an interesting back and forward.
Are all myths fiction and beautiful lies, fairy tales?
Myth : an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true
: a story that was told in an ancient culture to explain a practice, belief, or natural occurrence
: such stories as a group http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth
By definition; a myth is untrue. If it were true, it would not be called myth; it would be called a story, example, or something else that does not imply untruth. Though untrue, a myth can be used to make a point about something that is true.
I wouldn’t refer to a myth as a lie, because to lie implies deception. Those who tell myths either believe it or they make it clear the story is untrue.
Fairy tales are usually directed towards children so I wouldn’t necessarily put myth in that category either.
Kurieuo wrote:Some interesting points Tolkien makes to Lewis are:
We've accepted that all myths are lies, because we've been duped into accepting the lie of Materialism
The english language defines myth as an untrue story; materialism has nothing to do with it.
Kurieuo wrote:[*]The four walls of Materialism, are the four walls of a prison. And the Materialists are our jailers.
Is it fair to say the four walls of prison and jailers he speaks of is reality, and outside those four walls is imagination?
Kurieuo wrote:Tolkien responds:
How can it be wrong for a prisoner to think of things that exist, other than walls and jailers. Doesn't the fact that we can think of things outside the walls, suggest perhaps that things do actually exist outside those walls? After all, if the prison really is all that there is, then how is it that we can picture things that exist beyond the prison?
To simply imagine something outside four walls does not mean there is something outside the four walls. I can imagine animals speaking english when nobody is around, and conspiring against mankind to take over the world, then when people come around they pretend to act like dumb animals by barking, mooing, meowing, etc. in an effort to keep us ignorant of their plans.
The fact that I can imagine this doesn’t mean there is any truth to it.
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
Sorry Kenny, but re: "myth" I see it as buffoonery to not understand the elegance with which these two well-respected authors of literature often employ words. And, before you debate my own words, yes I understand words aren't actually "employed" and that they can't get jobs.
Tolkein and Lewis are both quite well-respected as far as literature is concerned, so forgive me if I don't give any respect your words above in the slightest which are quite amiss.
Re: Materialism, if it's an untrue story as it appears to be, then why I suppose it ought to be classified as "myth".
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
Kurieuo wrote:Sorry Kenny, but re: "myth" I see it as buffoonery to not understand the elegance with which these two well-respected authors of literature often employ words. And, before you debate my own words, yes I understand words aren't actually "employed" and that they can't get jobs.
Tolkein and Lewis are both quite well-respected as far as literature is concerned, so forgive me if I don't give any respect your words above in the slightest which are quite amiss.
Re: Materialism, if it's an untrue story as it appears to be, then why I suppose it ought to be classified as "myth".
Oh! Well pardon me; I must have over looked the fact that these words (no matter how ridicules they sound) are from the well-respected and elegant authors Tolkein and Lewis! After all; if they said it, it must be true; right??? Got it!!!
Ken
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
And, before you debate my own words, yes I understand words aren't actually "employed" and that they can't get jobs.