The Christian Walk - a personal testimony

[DannyM]

Cheers, B.W., and I will be responding in full to Rick and Bart's outstanding contributions...ooh I can't wait to get back properly...

[DannyM]

B.W.,

Thank you again.

Falling

I was definitely given a 'helping hand' when I went down. I remember the pastor's assistants comingpast me and noticeably avoid me when they saw my eyes were still open. When I closed my eyes in prayer they were back very quickly and one of them proceeded to put a hand on my forehead; just as you described. Then the subtle force began...etc, etc.

Healings

Healings and 'slayings' were immediately followed by a guy with a clipboard in people's faces wanting testimonies.

I'm not saying that everything I have witnessed was bogus; but I've passionately prayed on this and have searched myself for an honest analysis of everything that has occured.

The People

I've no doubt that most of the flock are genuine, Christ-loving Christians. I still don't know if I can begin to pronounce on their individual experiences and motives; that would be highly presumptious of me. I have to conclude thatI was caught up in one heck of an emotional circus. You lives and learns...

My Pastor

Not the revival pastor.

He knows of the conflict that has arisen with myself and my boy's family over this. He had promised to call me and arrange a visit. This was now weeks ago. I'm very sad that, with the urgent questions I have for him, he has chosen to step back and seemingly let me go.

God Bless, B.W.

[B. W.]

B.W.,

Thank you again.

Falling

I was definitely given a 'helping hand' when I went down. I remember the pastor's assistants comingpast me and noticeably avoid me when they saw my eyes were still open. When I closed my eyes in prayer they were back very quickly and one of them proceeded to put a hand on my forehead; just as you described. Then the subtle force began...etc, etc.

Healings

Healings and 'slayings' were immediately followed by a guy with a clipboard in people's faces wanting testimonies.

I'm not saying that everything I have witnessed was bogus; but I've passionately prayed on this and have searched myself for an honest analysis of everything that has occured.

The People

I've no doubt that most of the flock are genuine, Christ-loving Christians. I still don't know if I can begin to pronounce on their individual experiences and motives; that would be highly presumptious of me. I have to conclude thatI was caught up in one heck of an emotional circus. You lives and learns...

My Pastor

Not the revival pastor.

He knows of the conflict that has arisen with myself and my boy's family over this. He had promised to call me and arrange a visit. This was now weeks ago. I'm very sad that, with the urgent questions I have for him, he has chosen to step back and seemingly let me go.

God Bless, B.W.

I can relate too much of what you say. So let me share a bit about what happened at the small church I attend this past Sunday. We had visiting gentleman come forward for prayer. He fell backwards. No one touched him, but in the church I attend, we don’t move on. The pastor waited till he recovered, sat him a chair and said something to this effect as best as I can recall to the man and to the people attending the service:

“…Lot a times when people fall backwards the speaker moves on down some line, more fall – I know that most fall will get up later and then hours later they notice any benefit thought they received is gone. I think the enemy likes to have it that way so the majority of people don’t get set free or help, have the prayer or need answered they came up for… Not saying that people falling cannot be set free but it appears to be a show – how many does the MAN anoint fall down and whoo hoo people clap and shout while watching say’n to each other – ‘What an anointed service, hundreds fell down, slain in the spirit – power-ee-ful annoting – look at all on the floor.’

“…Hmmm, as I watch’n this, I am saying to myself - Slain by which spirit? The people on the ground, for most part miss what God wants to do and nothing much happens. In the bible when one was anointed – I don’t recall any falling down, some ran, others spoke, others got oil poured all over. Now forgive me but I missed your name - How you feel, honestly?”

He related in the recent past at other churches, he ended up on the floor in a prayer line and said that he felt he missed the blessing – whatever need he came up for it passed by. Now back to what happened with a little review on the church I attend: In our church, the members are a team as we have learned that it is not a one man show. We wait before the Lord and when someone has something from the Lord, they go up and pray. Some praying may leave, others come, one person may have just one bit of info, shares than is done, another goes on from there, etc. There were about 5of us praying directly for this man and then another visitor came forward too after seeing what was going on.

We had them sit in chairs. The first man, thru the Holy Spirit, was revealed to several of praying that this man Hated his mother due to her treatment and abandonment by her and as a child he wanted to murder her and his older brother all due to the abuse, rejection, favoritism, love never received, etc, and that he violently hated God because of being raised in a very dysfunctional family. This man is a Christian involved in his home church, etc, for years. We knew nothing about this man at all.

He responded during the course of being prayed for: He said that no one ever told him these things before, nor did he ever realize how much anger he had in for God. He asked - how did we know, we were spot on, so we prayed and he wept and even vomited a bit as this pain and hurt, rejection, guilt, confusion, loss of love – well left him. More team members came to the other visitor wanting this type of prayer and he likewise had his heart revealed and began to be set free. Soon others seated in the church had this happen to them each desiring prayer.

The first gentleman returned Sunday evening to the class I teach and could not get over how clean and free he felt. He attended a Spirit filled Church in California and relayed that he spent more time on the floor when people prayed and always went away still carrying forgotten burdens kept hidden in his heart and wasn’t aware of until He was confronted by not one person but five people who acted like a surgical team doing an operation and was the patient. He could not stop praising God and thank God for us –never seen a place like this. Hey, it was the Lord’s doing for him, not us.

Mind you who read this – the Church I attend is not a perfect church. We have plenty of faults but we do our best to operate as best we can discern from the bible and early records of the first Century Church. Is this the best model to follow in our modern world, I do not know. I am thankful to have found a community of believers who act as a team and do our best to not be play’n church but rather be’n. All glory goes to the Lord as only He can do this work thru such peculiar vessels as we are.

Some visitors are amazed that during the Pastor’s message, they can ask questions, and how others respond to help find the answer, and then the pastor goes on with the message. We open with a time of sharing, not many people share, due to I think fear of public speaking, but sometimes we have several at a time; and if the Lord wants us to pray for anyone coming forward – it is team effort. Like I said, this little church is not a perfect church by any means but the people love God and learned to be still before the Lord before they take ministry type action.

So I hope you can learn from this Danny – people do fall and often miss what they came for as they are passed over. This is not true in all cases – sometimes a person falls under the power of the Holy Spirit and have their prayer answer, repents, whatever the case maybe for them – they come off the floor totally different. I have seen this too and had it happen to me before. However, I have often been to places where people are gently nudged to fall and get no need honestly met.

Here is one way to check such things out as they happen, Go Vertical. Go vertical before the Lord means to become still (not striving) before him, look up to Him, (Psalms 46:10c) knowing that he will be exalted. Do nothing but wait, and ask the Lord about what you see. Whatever going on does it exalt the Lord? You may sense something, see something, might even hear something that will give an answer or lead you to find an answer later on. (note Psalms 83:18 and Psalms 21:13c).

You can begin this in your own prayer time and keep the verses from Psalms in mind as a way to check out anything that happens is from your own mind, the enemy, or God. Going Vertical before the Lord helps develop your faith and relationship with the Lord and often keeps one from always wallow’in horizontally on the floor.
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[DannyM]

Wow, B.W., you are really helping me move on with this and it is becoming so much more clear to me. A quick question
before I go on.

'I know that most fall will get up later and then hours later they notice any benefit thought they received is gone. I think the enemy likes to have it that way so the majority of people don’t get set free or help, have the prayer or need answered they came up for… Not saying that people falling cannot be set free but it appears to be a show – how many does the MAN anoint fall down and whoo hoo people clap and shout while watching say’n to each other – ‘What an anointed service, hundreds fell down, slain in the spirit – power-ee-ful annoting – look at all on the floor.'


Do you think it might be the enemy who is causing the falling? Do you think it is the enemy doing this through the pastor?

[B. W.]

Wow, B.W., you are really helping me move on with this and it is becoming so much more clear to me. A quick question
before I go on.

'I know that most fall will get up later and then hours later they notice any benefit thought they received is gone. I think the enemy likes to have it that way so the majority of people don’t get set free or help, have the prayer or need answered they came up for… Not saying that people falling cannot be set free but it appears to be a show – how many does the MAN anoint fall down and whoo hoo people clap and shout while watching say’n to each other – ‘What an anointed service, hundreds fell down, slain in the spirit – power-ee-ful annoting – look at all on the floor.'


Do you think it might be the enemy who is causing the falling? Do you think it is the enemy doing this through the pastor?

It is possible.

Best to check and see what is going on.

There are counterfits to the real deal too. We need discernment. I would not call all cases a counterfit, just look for the fruit.
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[DannyM]

Wow, B.W., you are really helping me move on with this and it is becoming so much more clear to me. A quick question
before I go on.

'I know that most fall will get up later and then hours later they notice any benefit thought they received is gone. I think the enemy likes to have it that way so the majority of people don’t get set free or help, have the prayer or need answered they came up for… Not saying that people falling cannot be set free but it appears to be a show – how many does the MAN anoint fall down and whoo hoo people clap and shout while watching say’n to each other – ‘What an anointed service, hundreds fell down, slain in the spirit – power-ee-ful annoting – look at all on the floor.'


Do you think it might be the enemy who is causing the falling? Do you think it is the enemy doing this through the pastor?

It is possible.

Best to check and see what is going on.

There are counterfits to the real deal too. We need discernment. I would not call all cases a counterfit, just look for the fruit.
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Thank you. I've certainly not gone completely sceptical again. I've taken what you've said,

Here is one way to check such things out as they happen, Go Vertical. Go vertical before the Lord means to become still (not striving) before him, look up to Him, (Psalms 46:10c) knowing that he will be exalted. Do nothing but wait, and ask the Lord about what you see. Whatever going on does it exalt the Lord? You may sense something, see something, might even hear something that will give an answer or lead you to find an answer later on. (note Psalms 83:18 and Psalms 21:13c).


and feel it is such sound advice that I need no longer dwell on the point. Thanks again, brother B.W..

[DannyM]

Bart,

Sorry I have taken so long to reply to this post. I wanted to be able to read it properly and free from time-limits at work.

This is off the track a bit, but I've had other very meaningful and I believe genuine deep, overwhelming senses of God's presence in my life in other contexts, including as a pastor when I prepared and preached (not always but often). This will seem ironic, but despite my generally moving away from an institutional model of church participation toward organic fellowship, probably the most meaningful public worship experience I've ever had was in an Episcopal Church during a good Friday service. It was a deeply liturgical service with many elements that I now look upon as based in traditions outside the Bible. Nevertheless, God chose to move through that in a way that still moves me when I recall it. The context of the elements of the service, while certainly important, I see now as not the source of the experience. I see that as a choice made by God in terms of revealing Himself to me. That happens still regardless of the contexts. That doesn't surprise me as much anymore. It makes sense to me. If God is real, the Holy Spirit real and someone who makes His own decisions then I should expect that God will initiate things in my life if I am open to Him. It's pretty presumptuous of me to continue to try to replicate the context of the previous times He's moved in my life. That is saying in effect that the presence of God is made real because of (fill in the blank from the practices we might try to replicate) and that God is manufactured in my life by my efforts alone. That's idolatry.

That helps alot. It helps me to see that, just because something's amiss in a church, this does not necessarily mean everything else must be dismissed. God's presence is then not necessarily negated by some ubiblical practices.

Now in terms of leadership in Charismatic churches (and not only there) if there's only one real warning I'll offer, it is this: Beware of churches and pastors who teach that you must be subject to their authority or "covering" or else God will not bless you. Personality cults happen in all forms of churches and denominations. Charismatic churches, in my opinion, are a little more susceptable to this than many others. Read I Corinthians in whole. It's no coincidence that along with all the other issues that were taking place in Corinth one of the first things in I Cor 3 that Paul addresses is the elevating of one particular teacher over the others. Corinth was doing it with Paul, Peter and Apollos et al. It still happens today.

My ex-church does offer blessings 'at the front' from the pastor. And my ex-pastor and his wife did appear mildly in awe of the revival pastor. I've definitely begun to see things more clearly lately through prayer and with the help of some brothers.

There's a lot of room for different understandings as to how churches can be organized and practice in areas of worship. I have strong opinions as I've stated in many regards that I'm not afraid to occassionally trumpet. I don't imagine that because I'm moving away from insitutional church that it's "wrong" or that other believers don't have the freedom to worship in whatever context they believe is right or even what they're used to but never question. It's not right for me, but I'd be extraordinaraily arrogant to imagine all must be as I am.

I agree. I'm not looking to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Leadership in any church context is portrayed by Jesus to first and foremost be service to others. If a pastor lauds himself and portrays himself as a "healer", or "prophet" etc. I think there needs to a lot of care and discernment as to how much influence you allow such a person in your life. Jesus is the head of the church. He gives the body leaders. When someone professes to be a gifted leader, and assumes a title based on the gifts they claim God exercises through them they are claiming personal ownership of something that God gives to the body as a whole, not to individual to hoard for their own power and glory. Listen carefully and ask the Holy Spirit to show you if there's a spirit of pride or presumed power there. It doesn't mean that God can't use such a person in your life but don't allow anyone, in any church to take the place reserved for Christ alone. The more such a leader demands you trust them (blindly) or for you to submit to them, the more careful you should be.

And here's the crux. Bart, you have uncannily described the revival pastor. The paragraph above is articulated so well that it is an almost epiphanic awakening for me. I'd been getting to a stage where I have been having sporadic thoughts of the like mentioned above, but you have formulated all of those thoughts into one healthy paragraph. I cannot thank you enough for your time and concern.

Danny

[Kurieuo]

I caught wind of this thread.

Sorry I have taken so long to reply to this post. I wanted to be able to read it properly and free from time-limits at work.

This is off the track a bit, but I've had other very meaningful and I believe genuine deep, overwhelming senses of God's presence in my life in other contexts, including as a pastor when I prepared and preached (not always but often). This will seem ironic, but despite my generally moving away from an institutional model of church participation toward organic fellowship, probably the most meaningful public worship experience I've ever had was in an Episcopal Church during a good Friday service. It was a deeply liturgical service with many elements that I now look upon as based in traditions outside the Bible. Nevertheless, God chose to move through that in a way that still moves me when I recall it. The context of the elements of the service, while certainly important, I see now as not the source of the experience. I see that as a choice made by God in terms of revealing Himself to me. That happens still regardless of the contexts. That doesn't surprise me as much anymore. It makes sense to me. If God is real, the Holy Spirit real and someone who makes His own decisions then I should expect that God will initiate things in my life if I am open to Him. It's pretty presumptuous of me to continue to try to replicate the context of the previous times He's moved in my life. That is saying in effect that the presence of God is made real because of (fill in the blank from the practices we might try to replicate) and that God is manufactured in my life by my efforts alone. That's idolatry.

That helps alot. It helps me to see that, just because something's amiss in a church, this does not necessarily mean everything else must be dismissed. God's presence is then not necessarily negated by some ubiblical practices.

Canuckster hit the nail on the head.

You know, many despise such experiences as nothing. I'd ask, such if they had ever experienced God. Ever felt God ministering to them. You wouldn't say such is just caught up in the moment, if you had truly experienced. And these people, the ones experiencing are I believe experiencing something real, and by that I believe they really are experiencing the presence of God. DannyM, I believe you did experience God.

For whatever reason, God uses and blesses many Christians with such experience even when the theology and message preached is poor. It's the reason why Hillsong is so popular, and why Evangelical Pentecostals are perhaps thriving where Catholicism, Anglicans and the like struggle to retain their congregations. Because, people are perceiving God and experiencing the Holy Spirit. Such ministry isn't one of the head, but of the heart.

Sadly, due to it being all heart, correct teaching is often second place and often lacks. Theology is often incomplete, if theology is even discussed at all -- forsaken for the experience and desire for God. It's the divine high they want, not the teaching. While these Christians aren't as logical or thinking, the one thing that can't be said is that they lack a heart for God and even Christ. Whether talking Misty Edwards, Hillsong or what-have-you.

Wisdom doesn't save, intellect and reason doesn't save, only Christ saves. You know, belief in Christ saves, and Paul says we believe with our hearts (Romans 10:10). God's always desired the heart. Whatever else, follows from that. If you have a heart for Christ, then while correct intellectual understanding is important and provides grounding, nonetheless many such are saved on heart alone.

The bar for reason and intellectual belief is so low, that children are saved. God uses something foolish to confuse the "wise". Who can fully understand the cross? Theologians study Christology and Soteriology their whole lives and still find new insights. The cross is a stumbling block to the wise of the world, and the power of God's love and forgiveness to those "foolish" enough to believe such nonsense.

• 18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
  
  19For it is written,
  “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
  AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
  
  20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor 1:18-25)

How do the foolish know they are saved? In part, I believe experiencing God. A new found perception as Newton sung, "I once was blind, but now I see." A new found perspective of the world where design is seen, here, there and everywhere such that only God can possibly make sense of it all. And, I dare say, the most foolish of us experience God all the more. Because God is happy to use what isn't perfect, to perfectly demonstrate Himself to us personally. Not to verify or promote this or that false teacher or teachings, but for His own sake in reaching out to the earnest seeker and person who desires God and responds to His call. Consider Christ says we must be like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.

For many Christians, Evangelical in nature, this experience is all that is needed. They lack the scientific understanding, they lack the philosophical logic and reasoning, they even lack correct theological teaching, and yet they are Christians of the heart if you will. Then you have those who are all in their head and feel nothing. Better balanced I see the Christian who is both of the heart and mind, loving God equally with both.

You know, in a way, I see God made it that way from the beginning. Using Peter an uneducated fisherman who Christ merely asked to follow him, and he blindly did so guided by his heart. Another pillar of Christianity, the Apostle Paul who was all logic and reason. Paul was fully acquainted with Jewish Scriptures, understood philosophy and teachings of the day, and reasoned, reasoned and reasoned. He was too smart for his own good, all head, such that nothing short of Christ striking him could penetrate and realign his heart.

Here I see we have two different veins of Christianity if you will. One Apostle all heart, the other Apostle all head. One experienced Christ directly and all his miracles, the other while he evidently had heart also largely used reason and was extremely blessed with wisdom and correct teaching. Such that, the Apostles themselves marveled and conceded Paul himself had full Apostolic authority.

Scripture says though that we are to love God with all our heart, all our mind and with all our soul. Blind and on "cloud 9" is the Christian who is all heart, how stiff and stagnant is the Christian who is all head, but blessed is the Christian who has more balance possessing both rational grounding and heart. All however are under Christ, and lead by the Holy Spirit according to God's will.

[RickD]