Predestined or Free Will?

[Kurieuo]

You've probably already heard it, but just came across it recently ok?

• A Calvinist arrives at St. Peter’s gates and sees that there are two queues going in. One is marked “predestined,” and the other is marked “free will.” Being the card-carrying Calvinist that he is, he strolls on over to the predestined queue. After several moments an angel asks him, “Why are you in this line?” He replies, “Because I chose it.” The angel looks surprised, “Well, if you ‘chose’ it, then you should be in the free will line.” So our Calvinist, now slightly miffed, obediently wanders over to the free will line. Again, after a few minutes, another angel asks him, “Why are you in this line?” He sullenly replies, “Someone made me come here.”

[abelcainsbrother]

I believe it is alittle of both. Just because God knows who will be saved does not mean we do not use our free-will to put our faith in him and serve him.God does not and will not make us believe in him but he knows who will when they hear the gospel.

[Nessa]

Yes I have free will; I have no choice but to have it - Hitchens

[RickD]

You've probably already heard it, but just came across it recently ok?

• A Calvinist arrives at St. Peter’s gates and sees that there are two queues going in. One is marked “predestined,” and the other is marked “free will.” Being the card-carrying Calvinist that he is, he strolls on over to the predestined queue. After several moments an angel asks him, “Why are you in this line?” He replies, “Because I chose it.” The angel looks surprised, “Well, if you ‘chose’ it, then you should be in the free will line.” So our Calvinist, now slightly miffed, obediently wanders over to the free will line. Again, after a few minutes, another angel asks him, “Why are you in this line?” He sullenly replies, “Someone made me come here.”

I don't get it. What's a queue?

K,

Did you steal that from "Why I Am Not A 5 Point Calvinist"– By Dr. Norman Geisler?

[Nessa]

Did esau and jacob have total free will? Did jacob just happen to have his hand round esaus foot? Was that free will?

[RickD]

Did esau and jacob have total free will? Did jacob just happen to have his hand round jacobs foot? Was that free will?

Nessa,

This is the humor forum. No serious questions allowed!

[Nessa]

Did esau and jacob have total free will? Did jacob just happen to have his hand round jacobs foot? Was that free will?

Nessa,

This is the humor forum. No serious questions allowed!

Oh so now Im not fluffy enough?

[Kurieuo]

Did esau and jacob have total free will? Did jacob just happen to have his hand round jacobs foot? Was that free will?

Nessa,

This is the humor forum. No serious questions allowed!

And Nessa, especially no posts with edits. Geesh.
But, no, unless Esau and Jacob could fly they didn't have total free will.

[Philip]

But, no, unless Esau and Jacob could fly they didn't have total free will.

There is only One whom has ever had TOTAL free will - and He's ALWAYS had it!

[Nessa]

But, no, unless Esau and Jacob could fly they didn't have total free will.

There is only One whom has ever had TOTAL free will - and He's ALWAYS had it!

But does God have total free will?

I'm not sure about that
He himself limits his own free will, ties his own hands to a certain extent... In order to give us free will.

[Philip]

What do you call a Calvinist who has stopped taking his medication?


A Universalist!

[Philip]

But does God have total free will?

Nessa: I'm not sure about that
He himself limits his own free will, ties his own hands to a certain extent... In order to give us free will.

Do you see what you just did - you indicated that God HAS free will but that He limits it? He either has it or He doesn't! And just because He EXERCISES His free will in the ways that He does, does not mean that He COULDN'T do otherwise IF He wanted to. But God chooses per His Holy Character. Which means that while He has sinful CHOICES, He always chooses good and never evil. In fact, His Character is perfectly Holy and is the very DEFINITION and measure of what is righteous. If God, in His Incarnation of Jesus, could NOT sin, then He could not have been tempted by the devil. But He, in His flesh, and though still fully God, was indeed tempted. Free will is the ABILITY to choose what you desire (amongst the choices offered/available). God's actual choices are as many as exist, as He has allowed. But HOW He chooses is devoid of evil. Don't confuse the available choices with how one chooses.

[IceMobster]

But, no, unless Esau and Jacob could fly they didn't have total free will.

There is only One whom has ever had TOTAL free will - and He's ALWAYS had it!

But does God have total free will?

I'm not sure about that
He himself limits his own free will, ties his own hands to a certain extent... In order to give us free will.

I suppose "That does not mean that He COULDN'T do otherwise IF He wanted to." would have been enough.

[Nessa]

Yes and no

Yes, I realise that God is using free will to limit his free will but at the same time he is allowing himself to actually not have free will in a situation.

If you give your child $5 dollars and say to them go spend it on whatever you want then you are giving them free will and stopping your own free will from telling her what to buy.

If five minutes later she goes to buy lollies but you say oh wait you cant get that you are not truly giving her free will.

I think in a real sense God doesnt always have total free will because in his sovereignty he denies himself it at least at times.

He cant just say here ya go and snatch it back, or he wouldnt really be giving us free will. But limited free will by manipulation. Really just trying to get his own way.

I think God really does give us free will, by denying his own free will, at least at times.

[Nessa]

I dont think it's as simple as 'Why didnt God stop x y z? He could have!'
When he gave us free will, he meant it.

And in a sense God is not able to have total free will all the time as some would like to think he has.