Fascinating atheist veridical nde conversion

[B. W.]

Just saw this thread...

Sorry I missed it...

If you can contact the guy, please do and we can talk. I do not mind that. Just let me know.

AS for last comment...

Everyone will face death, there is no escape...

Medical life saving techniques have brought folks back from the dead. The drug propofol wipe out memories of treatment duration, feelings, and thoughts so folks who have these types of drugs report nothing due to drug effect. However others who have not had these recall common elements.

Again everyone will die..so how will you face that day?
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[B. W.]

P. S from my above post:

Comment on the person's experience:

He unknowingly describes the judgment of love I speak of when I speak on this topic. However, he was revived too soon and does not quite get it that he was being judged and judge as failing the question posed to him.

In other words, God is not mocked, what one sows they will reap... Mocking God's love, manipulating it, abusing it is all proved beyond all doubt. The feeling of God's love for everyone is meant to reveal that one rejected it by how he or she lived in this life taking advantage of it, using it for one's selfish needs and buttress illusions that one is better and gooder than God...

He came back to soon to realize what was happening. Little more time, he would have a different tune after having his true self revealed as he really is. Terrible to actually see what you are really like and no amount of doing good can erase how one has betrayed, abandoned, bore false witness, rejected, crushed, mocked, scoffed, beaten, lied about, abused family, friends, acquaintances, self, as it proves how one will be with God once they grasp his love and continue to game it to get the their gets. After this one is awakened to a reality more real than this life ever is...

No, none righteous, not one...

All need a savior who proved the only way back to God on a cross. Think how easy the test is: faith in his act of grace for you designed to change your life out of darkness into his light. Jesus is the only way, the truth, and the life...
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[Vergil]

This guy reminds me of Saul from Acts

[bippy123]

Just saw this thread...

Sorry I missed it...

If you can contact the guy, please do and we can talk. I do not mind that. Just let me know.

AS for last comment...

Everyone will face death, there is no escape...

Medical life saving techniques have brought folks back from the dead. The drug propofol wipe out memories of treatment duration, feelings, and thoughts so folks who have these types of drugs report nothing due to drug effect. However others who have not had these recall common elements.

Again everyone will die..so how will you face that day?
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Hey Bryan he hasn't responded to me on a while as I think he felt he wouldn't be received so well here . I haven't heard from him since but his Facebook name is still in my original post .

[PaulSacramento]

It is important to always remember the FILTER of expereince is what we use to be able to RELATE expereinces to others.
This may have been the only way to explain what this person felt and saw during his NDE.
It doesn't make it correct or incorrect per se, just the only way he was able to relate it.
NDE are called NDE NOT because people don't die ( for an NDE to be an NDE a person must be clinically viewed as dead) but because they come back from being dead.
They should be called Back from Death Experiences.

[Audie]

Why is it so important to insist that a doctor's call that
a person is clinically dead be determined to be really-really
squashed possum on the highway-dead?

[B. W.]

Why is it so important to insist that a doctor's call that
a person is clinically dead be determined to be really-really
squashed possum on the highway-dead?

Even if a really-really squashed possum on the highway-dead was healed made whole, many-many folks would not acknowledge God at all involved in it.

If this happened, it would be touted like this: probably caused by random chance. You see, the atoms and molecules all came back together and formed and wham a whole perfect possum emerged, thus, amazing proof for evolution- finally at last!
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[PaulSacramento]

NDE's and the Shroud have one thing in common:
Because science can explain 1 or two parts of it, many people write them off.
The issue is, of course, that science CAN NOT explain the WHOLE of the experience ( much like it can't explain ALL the characteristics of the shroud being a "fraud".)

See, while science has addressed the "white light" thing ( it being possible that the white light is nothing more than the process of the brain shutting down) and feelings of "euphoria" as being POSSIBLE hallucinations, science has NOT been able to address things like the ability of people being able to describe, in detail, things that could not have seen while unconscious and even, in many cases, in a different location.

Point being is that because science MAY address the POSSIBILITY of some NDE experiences being explainable, it does NOT address the SUM of them all.

[Morny]

Why is it so important to insist that a doctor's call that
a person is clinically dead be determined to be really-really
squashed possum on the highway-dead?

Even if a really-really squashed possum on the highway-dead was healed made whole, many-many folks would not acknowledge God at all involved in it.

If this happened, it would be touted like this: probably caused by random chance. You see, the atoms and molecules all came back together and formed and wham a whole perfect possum emerged, thus, amazing proof for evolution- finally at last!

I know of no one in the science-thinking world, who would even remotely hint at such a thing. Also, Audie's point is correct.

A doctor's proclamation of death is irrelevant to the poor evidence for NDEs, in which the "near dead" person often claims extraordinary knowledge, e.g., from an OBE.

[Morny]

NDE's and the Shroud have one thing in common:
Because science can explain 1 or two parts of it, many people write them off.
The issue is, of course, that science CAN NOT explain the WHOLE of the experience ( much like it can't explain ALL the characteristics of the shroud being a "fraud".)

See, while science has addressed the "white light" thing ( it being possible that the white light is nothing more than the process of the brain shutting down) and feelings of "euphoria" as being POSSIBLE hallucinations, science has NOT been able to address things like the ability of people being able to describe, in detail, things that could not have seen while unconscious and even, in many cases, in a different location.

Point being is that because science MAY address the POSSIBILITY of some NDE experiences being explainable, it does NOT address the SUM of them all.

Strawman. Science never explains everything about anything.

Science weighs evidence against theories. For example, ultra-careful, repeatedly radiocarbon-dated, double-blind, peer-reviewed analyses dating a cloth to the 14th century is strong evidence.

And science doesn't have to explain the small percentage of as-yet-unexplained UFOs, in order to cast doubt on the theory that aliens are visiting credulous people, who never seem to have their smart phone camera handy, in spite clogging the Internet with their cat videos.

[...] science has NOT been able to address things like the ability of people being able to describe, in detail, things that could not have seen while unconscious and even, in many cases, in a different location.

Evidence please. (In previous posts I addressed poor quality evidence that someone posted on such extraordinary OBE knowledge.)

[Audie]

N

DE's and the Shroud have one thing in common:
Because science can explain 1 or two parts of it, many people write them off.

"Many" unidentified persons not present do all sorts of things. So what?

The shroud and NDE has a lot in common with a great array of fringie woo woo things that
'believers" (here defined as those with a penchant for believing things) like to point to
as "baffling them scientists", and marvellous evidence for their god.

Dont yo see the humour in it? THAT is what you guys have?

The issue is, of course, that science CAN NOT explain the WHOLE of the experience ( much like it can't explain ALL the characteristics of the shroud being a "fraud".)

Noa all of the characteristics need be examined. Bernie Madoff probably did some things that were not fraudulent.

See, while science has addressed the "white light" thing ( it being possible that the white light is nothing more than the process of the brain shutting down) and feelings of "euphoria" as being POSSIBLE hallucinations, science has NOT been able to address things like the ability of people being able to describe, in detail, things that could not have seen while unconscious and even, in many cases, in a different location.

Peole in the NDE cult have not been able to demonstrate that such things actually happen.

Point being is that because science MAY address the POSSIBILITY of some NDE experiences being explainable, it does NOT address the SUM of them all.

Is that a point worth making? Nobody knows all about dreams either. Shall we thus conclude that I actually did drive a Lexus into the water last night, as I dreamed, but it was in a different dimension?

[Philip]

Point being is that because science MAY address the POSSIBILITY of some NDE experiences being explainable, it does NOT address the SUM of them all.

Audie: Is that a point worth making? Nobody knows all about dreams either. Shall we thus conclude that I actually did drive a Lexus into the water last night, as I dreamed, but it was in a different dimension?

It is a point worth making (only) IF the experience was had and was retained from a period when ALL brain activity had already ceased, no heartbeat, etc. If the brain is necessary for any sensory input or awareness, if it controls ALL other bodily organs and functions, and it has completely shut down - no oxygen, no bloodflow - then how could the brain manufacture, much less retain, such memories? We must agree, at the very least, that such memories - if created ONLY by one's brain - how it could do so if it has stopped functioning? Because this means the memory had to be generated from another source. Again, we must be careful about what we consider to be a NEAR death experience - as for spiritual experience - and that should ONLY be when a person has ceased all heartbeat and brain activity and yet comes back to life (thus the "NEAR" meaning that the body had died but, after a period, sprang back to life.

Another thing to ponder: People get put into a deep sleep for operations all the time - when they are relatively healthy (not dying) and are undergoing some type of surgery (just as I did so two weeks back). Why is it these supposed NDE "dreams" are not commonly reported then?

[Audie]

Point being is that because science MAY address the POSSIBILITY of some NDE experiences being explainable, it does NOT address the SUM of them all.

Audie: Is that a point worth making? Nobody knows all about dreams either. Shall we thus conclude that I actually did drive a Lexus into the water last night, as I dreamed, but it was in a different dimension?

It is a point worth making (only) IF the experience was had and was retained from a period when ALL brain activity had already ceased, no heartbeat, etc. If the brain is necessary for any sensory input or awareness, if it controls ALL other bodily organs and functions, and it has completely shut down - no oxygen, no bloodflow - then how could the brain manufacture, much less retain, such memories? We must agree, at the very least, that such memories - if created ONLY by one's brain - how it could do so if it has stopped functioning? Because this means the memory had to be generated from another source. Again, we must be careful about what we consider to be a NEAR death experience - as for spiritual experience - and that should ONLY be when a person has ceased all heartbeat and brain activity and yet comes back to life (thus the "NEAR" meaning that the body had died but, after a period, sprang back to life.

Another thing to ponder: People get put into a deep sleep for operations all the time - when they are relatively healthy (not dying) and are undergoing some type of surgery (just as I did so two weeks back). Why is it these supposed NDE "dreams" are not commonly reported then?

Why is soooo important that the person has to have been dead?

And then "sprang back to life"?

[Philip]

Audie: Why is soooo important that the person has to have been dead?

And then "sprang back to life"?

From the standpoint of God giving someone a message or spiritual experience? None. God can reveal Himself wherever, however - except that no non-Christian could ever actually visit Heaven. But as for OUR understanding of such a reported experience, a cessation of brain activity and heart function mean that any suggestion that a non-functioning brain created - much less later accessed and retained such an incredible experience, or that during this lifeless/brain-dead state that a person could reveal events going on that would have been impossible for the person to know - well, that these experiences have occurred without a functioning brain rule out the usual physical/psychological/dream explanations.

Audie, you, yourself have mentioned that there must have been some unknowable thing that preceded all that physically did not exist prior to the precise moment of the Big Bang. I would say you KNOW there is something beyond the mere physical. And certain NDEs reveal that to be the case, because there is no physical explanation of cognitive perceptions without a brain to process them. And no brain - then what created the experience and what made it possible?

Whenever the subject of NDEs come up, I like to post links to academic research concerning them:

Hank Hanegraaff's organization, Christian Research Institute, has some fascinating things to say about near death experiences and research related to them:

Near Death Experience Part One:

http://www.equip.org/articles/the-near- ... -part-one/

Near Death Experience Part Two:

http://www.equip.org/articles/the-near- ... -part-two/

Related Articles:

http://www.equip.org/category/near-death-experience/

[Audie]

So why is it so important to insist someone was "dead"?