"Lordship Salvation"

[RickD]

DBowling wrote:

I never have and never will assert that exhibition of fruit or any other work for that matter is a condition for salvation.
There is a huge difference between something being a condition for salvation and something being a result of salvation.

In other words, you won't allow works into the front door.

Anyone with whom I have this same discussion, and takes your position, cannot grasp this concept. Show me where I'm wrong.

1) only those who are saved have true faith

2) all those with (true) faith, produce good works.

3) all those who don't produce good works, don't have true faith.

4) therefore, good works is a(the) sign of whether or not one has true faith ( is saved).

That's how I see you have it understood. Show me what is wrong, if I'm mistaken.

[RickD]

DBowling,

I think I've found a good link about LS that needs to be critiqued. But first, I'd like to make sure it's a fair representation of what LS actually teaches. If you don't mind, please read this article, and let me know if it's a good representation of LS.

Some of the issues in the article have already been addressed, either by SoCal, or myself. I think it's a good starting point.

[DBowling]

Show me where I'm wrong.

1) only those who are saved have true faith

2) all those with (true) faith, produce good works.

3) all those who don't produce good works, don't have true faith.

4) therefore, good works is a(the) sign of whether or not one has true faith ( is saved).

That's how I see you have it understood. Show me what is wrong, if I'm mistaken.

I think that is a fair representation of my position

[DBowling]

DBowling,

I think I've found a good link about LS that needs to be critiqued. But first, I'd like to make sure it's a fair representation of what LS actually teaches. If you don't mind, please read this article, and let me know if it's a good representation of LS.

Some of the issues in the article have already been addressed, either by SoCal, or myself. I think it's a good starting point.

Yes I believe that article is a fair representation of what LS teaches

[RickD]

Show me where I'm wrong.

1) only those who are saved have true faith

2) all those with (true) faith, produce good works.

3) all those who don't produce good works, don't have true faith.

4) therefore, good works is a(the) sign of whether or not one has true faith ( is saved).

That's how I see you have it understood. Show me what is wrong, if I'm mistaken.

I think that is a fair representation of my position

Good. Maybe this will help you see what I'm saying then. I'm not sure if you're aware that some "hyper-Pentecostal" groups believe that speaking in tongues is the sign that shows if one is a believer. In other words, according to them, all true believers speak in tongues. See if you can make the connection here:

1) only those who are saved are true believers

2) all true believers speak in tongues

3) all those who don't speak in tongues, aren't true believers

4) therefore, speaking in tongues is a(the) sign of whether or not one is a true believer ( is saved)

In the above, you can see that they have replaced or added to by grace, through faith(trusting Christ) as the condition for salvation, by saying tongues is the sign/measure of all those who are saved.

See how it's the same as those who add to grace by faith, to say that good works are the sign/measure of someone who is saved?

[SoCalExile]

Good. Maybe this will help you see what I'm saying then. I'm not sure if you're aware that some "hyper-Pentecostal" groups believe that speaking in tongues is the sign that shows if one is a believer. In other words, according to them, all true believers speak in tongues. See if you can make the connection here:

1) only those who are saved are true believers

2) all true believers speak in tongues

3) all those who don't speak in tongues, aren't true believers

4) therefore, speaking in tongues is a(the) sign of whether or not one is a true believer ( is saved)

In the above, you can see that they have replaced or added to by grace, through faith(trusting Christ) as the condition for salvation, by saying tongues is the sign/measure of all those who are saved.

See how it's the same as those who add to grace by faith, to say that good works are the sign/measure of someone who is saved?

Yeah Bethel out of Redding, CA, teaches this. My wife spent 3 hours in an airport shuttle with three Bethel-ites recently and got into the same argument we're having here regarding works vs. grace. And yeah, one told her if she doesn't pray in tongues it's a sign she's not saved.

[Philip]

OK, again, this issue is hugely important, particularly how SOME LS adherents assert so many aren't saved "because they just prayed a prayer, said the right things." But regardless of how some people go way too far, insistent that millions of Christians aren't so because they didn't fully repent before being saved, or whatever level of deep comprehension or response they so deem adequate wasn't there - we DO, nonetheless, know that many HAVE deceived themselves as they have never truly come to an understanding of Who Jesus is or sincerely placed their faith, desire and commitment to following Him. And because we know such people exist - many of whom one would view as merely cultural Christians, or they joined some church, etc. THESE unsaved persons need to realize they are NOT saved. SO, what hopefully effective and thoughtful questions would you suggest one ask them? Just precisely how would you phrase your questions, so that unsaved people might recognize their remaining need to truly come to Christ. Because, is that not what this debate really should be about - not just the fear-mongering and needless insecurity some LS types spread - but what of those whom are not saved but think they are - that perhaps even APPEAR to be? We need a response that makes such people contemplate their own spiritual reality. Suggestions, please!

[Byblos]

OK, again, this issue is hugely important, particularly how SOME LS adherents assert so many aren't saved "because they just prayed a prayer, said the right things." But regardless of how some people go way too far, insistent that millions of Christians aren't so because they didn't fully repent before being saved, or whatever level of deep comprehension or response they so deem adequate wasn't there - we DO, nonetheless, know that many HAVE deceived themselves as they have never truly come to an understanding of Who Jesus is or sincerely placed their faith, desire and commitment to following Him. And because we know such people exist - many of whom one would view as merely cultural Christians, or they joined some church, etc. THESE unsaved persons need to realize they are NOT saved. SO, what hopefully effective and thoughtful questions would you suggest one ask them? Just precisely how would you phrase your questions, so that unsaved people might recognize their remaining need to truly come to Christ. Because, is that not what this debate really should be about - not just the fear-mongering and needless insecurity some LS types spread - but what of those whom are not saved but think they are - that perhaps ever APPEAR to be? We need a response that makes such people contemplate their own spiritual reality. Suggestions, please!

It's rather academic really as it boils down to an 'either/or' proposition. Either one has an absolute, once-and-for-all-no-matter-what assurance or one has a moral assurance but not an absolute one. There is no in between. If you don't believe in the former you are necessarily in the latter's camp.

[DBowling]

Good. Maybe this will help you see what I'm saying then. I'm not sure if you're aware that some "hyper-Pentecostal" groups believe that speaking in tongues is the sign that shows if one is a believer. In other words, according to them, all true believers speak in tongues. See if you can make the connection here:

Apples/oranges... but I can work with this to answer your question...

1) only those who are saved are true believers

2) all true believers speak in tongues

3) all those who don't speak in tongues, aren't true believers

4) therefore, speaking in tongues is a(the) sign of whether or not one is a true believer ( is saved)

In the above, you can see that they have replaced or added to by grace, through faith(trusting Christ) as the condition for salvation, by saying tongues is the sign/measure of all those who are saved.

See how it's the same as those who add to grace by faith, to say that good works are the sign/measure of someone who is saved?

There are really two separate issues here
1. Is it Scriptural to assert that all true believers speak in tongues
2. Is it "adding to grace" to say that something is an indicator of salvation.

1. The basic premise that all true believers speak in tongues is unScriptural
Ephesians 2:8-10 does not say that we are saved by grace through faith to speak in tongues
Jesus, Paul, John, and James do not claim that speaking in tongues is an indicator of genuine faith and salvation.
In fact Paul teaches us that different believers have different Spiritual Gifts. Some believers may have the Spiritual Gift of speaking in tongues, but it is unscriptural to assert that all believers have the specific Spiritual gift of speaking in tongues.

2. The second issue is whether this assertion is replacing or adding to grace.
If a person asserts that tongues are required to gain salvation or is in some way meritorious for attaining salvation then that is adding to grace.
Ephesians 2 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works which tells us that the cause of salvation is grace not works. So anyone who asserts that the cause of salvation is works or that works in any way enables salvation is replacing or adding to grace.
However, as has been pointed out many times salvation (through the work of the Holy Spirit) is the cause good works... not vice versa

So if grace causes salvation and salvation in turn causes good works, then the assertion that salvation causes good works does not add to or replace grace. It actually reinforces the primacy of grace by recognizing that both salvation and good works both have their primary cause in grace.

In Christ

[PaulSacramento]

So if grace causes salvation and salvation in turn causes good works, then the assertion that salvation causes good works does not add to or replace grace. It actually reinforces the primacy of grace by recognizing that both salvation and good works both have their primary cause in grace.

While agree that good works ( helping others out of love for no motive other than love, with no thought or recompense or desire to be known as "good") is a byproduct of God's Grace ( I love because I was loved first when I didn't merit any love), what does that really mean?

God requires us to listen to His Son and for us to take care of others WITHIN our means to what degree we are ABLE to.
He will judge our actions and, more importantly, our intent in performing them.

Why should any Christian look to see what another is doing? IF they are doing "enough"?

Who's place is it to judge our belief? our acts? is it not God's?

And if not God's then why are you looking to what your brother does or doesn't do ?

[SoCalExile]

My points are being ignored, but I'll make them anyway.

Ephesians 2:10 does not guarantee good works , to say so, again, contradicts Romans 4:5 and Romans 11:6. What Paul must be saying is that there is no room to boast, because you and any works you manage to do aren't your own either; they were laid out by God; who btw, knows aready where we will succeed or fail and yet His grace is still free, and not a loan.

[RickD]

Good. Maybe this will help you see what I'm saying then. I'm not sure if you're aware that some "hyper-Pentecostal" groups believe that speaking in tongues is the sign that shows if one is a believer. In other words, according to them, all true believers speak in tongues. See if you can make the connection here:

Apples/oranges... but I can work with this to answer your question...

1) only those who are saved are true believers

2) all true believers speak in tongues

3) all those who don't speak in tongues, aren't true believers

4) therefore, speaking in tongues is a(the) sign of whether or not one is a true believer ( is saved)

In the above, you can see that they have replaced or added to by grace, through faith(trusting Christ) as the condition for salvation, by saying tongues is the sign/measure of all those who are saved.

See how it's the same as those who add to grace by faith, to say that good works are the sign/measure of someone who is saved?

There are really two separate issues here
1. Is it Scriptural to assert that all true believers speak in tongues
2. Is it "adding to grace" to say that something is an indicator of salvation.

1. The basic premise that all true believers speak in tongues is unScriptural
Ephesians 2:8-10 does not say that we are saved by grace through faith to speak in tongues
Jesus, Paul, John, and James do not claim that speaking in tongues is an indicator of genuine faith and salvation.
In fact Paul teaches us that different believers have different Spiritual Gifts. Some believers may have the Spiritual Gift of speaking in tongues, but it is unscriptural to assert that all believers have the specific Spiritual gift of speaking in tongues.

2. The second issue is whether this assertion is replacing or adding to grace.
If a person asserts that tongues are required to gain salvation or is in some way meritorious for attaining salvation then that is adding to grace.
Ephesians 2 tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works which tells us that the cause of salvation is grace not works. So anyone who asserts that the cause of salvation is works or that works in any way enables salvation is replacing or adding to grace.
However, as has been pointed out many times salvation (through the work of the Holy Spirit) is the cause good works... not vice versa

So if grace causes salvation and salvation in turn causes good works, then the assertion that salvation causes good works does not add to or replace grace. It actually reinforces the primacy of grace by recognizing that both salvation and good works both have their primary cause in grace.

In Christ

The comparison with tongues, was supposed to show you that just as tongues being an indicator of salvation isn't biblical, in the same way, works being an indicator of salvation is not biblical.

But getting to your last paragraph:

So if grace causes salvation and salvation in turn causes good works, then the assertion that salvation causes good works does not add to or replace grace. It actually reinforces the primacy of grace by recognizing that both salvation and good works both have their primary cause in grace.

We both agree that salvation is by grace through faith. But, Where are you getting the assertion that salvation causes good works necessarily? In order for a believer to grow and mature, which results in good works, the believer must cooperate with the Holy Spirit. Good works aren't a necessary byproduct of salvation. Otherwise as SoCal has already pointed out, there would be no need for James to instruct Christians on how to be a good disciple.

DBowling wrote:
2. Is it "adding to grace" to say that something is an indicator of salvation.

Not if scripture says it's an indicator of salvation. And the only thing scripture says is an indicator of salvation, is faith/trust in Christ.

1John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

[RickD]

My points are being ignored, but I'll make them anyway.

Ephesians 2:10 does not guarantee good works , to say so, again, contradicts Romans 4:5 and Romans 11:6. What Paul must be saying is that there is no room to boast, because you and any works you manage to do aren't your own either; they were laid out by God; who btw, knows aready where we will succeed or fail and yet His grace is still free, and not a loan.

They're not being ignored by me(see my last post).

This point you're making is crucial. Good works being an assumed and necessary product of salvation, is not biblical. Good works come from being a good disciple, obviously with the leading work of the Holy Spirit.

[RickD]

Byblos wrote:

It's rather academic really as it boils down to an 'either/or' proposition. Either one has an absolute, once-and-for-all-no-matter-what assurance or one has a moral assurance but not an absolute one. There is no in between. If you don't believe in the former you are necessarily in the latter's camp.

As we've been through this before, I'm just saying the same thing as always. Assurance in this context is by definition, a promise. When I say all believers have assurance of salvation, I'm saying that all believers have God's promise of salvation.

So, either all believers have God's assurance/promise of eternal life, if they have placed their faith in Christ, or God's promise that "whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life", is a lie.

It's a simple as this...

1) Trust that God's promise is true, that if you place your faith in Christ, you have eternal life. You have passed from death unto life at that moment. And God will be faithful to keep you, despite your sin and failings. Period.

Or
2) Trust in Christ for salvation. But NOT believe God's promise is true about having eternal life, go on trying to work to keep salvation, worry about doing something bad enough that you may lose eternal life(can't lose eternal life, it wouldn't be eternal if you could lose it), constantly live stressed out, trying to perform up to par, and hoping you don't lose faith. And in the end, you still have God's assurance/promise of eternal life, but just wasted your life worrying, instead of continuing to trust Christ, and let the HS work through you to do good works which God has saved you to do.

[Philip]

To be clear, my question concerning what thought-provoking questions we might ask to provoke self-contemplation in those whom might not be saved (but THINK they are) - it's not about what WE can discern from such people, as to any work's-related "proofs" of their salvation, because we can't peer into people's hearts and minds. Its about making others contemplate what they might have deluded themselves over.

Again, the saved thief on the cross comes to mind - he articulated to Jesus an understanding of precisely Who Jesus truly was in his response to the other thief ("Do you not fear GOD?"/ "Remember me when you come into YOUR kingdom."), and his desire for Jesus remember him. What possible WORKS could WE discern from such a man, just hours from death? I would imagine he actually said very little, with every word being excruciating and beyond imaginable effort. Any supposed works would have been in what he articulated for the ages, and more importantly, from the WORK God did in the thief's HEART and MIND, that he RESPONDED to. Also, very interesting, as to the supposed great depth of understanding and theologically correct articulation and manifestation necessary, from many in the Lordship Salvation crowd, that we don't read of some great repentance and deep commitment from the thief Jesus reassured - we see a very simple but powerful understanding has come upon him, of precisely Who/What (Lord) Jesus is, and yet it is articulated so thinly. He doesn't request forgiveness, but that he has turned to Jesus in faith is apparent in the boldness of his "request" - actually, almost a directive: " He does acknowledge that they (the thieves) are paying for sins he himself acknowledges Jesus remember me when you come into your Kingdom."

The saved thief's story is, essentially, a death-bed salvation, during great duress, pain, and realizing that he is soon to die - all of which, and most importantly, his close-up encounter with Jesus, brings him to faith. In fact, it is almost certain that this man, without his fearful dilemma and ALSO encountering Jesus, would never, otherwise have turned. And yet, in the very same situation, witnessing Jesus up close, the other thief echoes the world's mockery of God. But, really, my point of all this is that the INTENTIONS OF THE HEART of this thief are why Jesus judged him acceptable for His Kingdom. From many whom promote the way LS is often articulated, based upon the thin evidence that any MAN could have perceived (without Jesus having validated the thief's salvation), they would likely highly question anyone else's salvation ("Where's the evidence???!!! Where are the WORKS???!!!"). And so I think we all need to emphasize that WE just can't KNOW whether any person having prayed a simple prayer isn't saved - or that they are. But there are cautions of self-examination that are important for everyone. But I will say, when we see NO evidence of works in a LONG-time supposed believer, especially if they are given to certain behaviors and actions - we should be suspicious and at least WONDER about the likelihood they are not saved. But to dogmatically assert that if we haven't seen A,B or C in a person, then we KNOW they aren't saved - degenerate that someone has "prayed a prayer for Jesus to save them," and assert they are likely unsaved - I think, this is complete arrogance, that a MAN can know things only God can about another's salvation - as these may well be things that cannot be SEEN by men.