"Lordship Salvation"

[SoCalExile]

The entire premise of LS contradicts scripture.

...yet another inaccurate assertion about LS...

Let me point out two of the basic premises of LS that are not only Scriptural, but are lacking in many of the evangelical presentations of the Gospel that I've seen.

1. LS identifies the correct object of genuine faith.
According to Scripture the object of genuine faith is the person of Jesus Christ.

Many presentations of the Gospel identify the object of faith as intellectual knowledge about a set of theological truths.

Genuine faith places its trust in the person of Jesus Christ...
not my personal knowledge of key theological truths.

That is the difference between the dead faith of the demons and a living faith that works in James 2.

2. LS correctly identifies what trusting in Jesus saves us from.

When we trust in Jesus we are trusting in him to save us from our sin.

Many presentations of the Gospel focus only on saving us from the consequences of sin.

Scripture tells us that we are trusting in Jesus to save us from all aspects of sin, including our bondage to sin, and death.
If a person is only trusting Jesus to save them from Hell, then they are totally missing what Jesus died on the cross to save them from.

In Christ

Again, you're ignoring the quotes and proclamations of LS teachers in saying this.

You're also using deceptive LS buzzwords like "genuine faith"; well, let's go over this again...what makes faith genuine?

[SoCalExile]

I would say that, pressed to greater clarity, I pretty much agree with how DBowling states his take on this. But the way he has clarified is not how I hear LS adherents assert things, which are often well laden with fear-mongering DOisms asserted needed for proof - proof that can never be enough or validated (by man). But, especially with a guy like Paul Washer, who marries his Reformed beliefs to such teaching - well, it can cause a lot of damage and fear. I would agree that no true believer with the Holy Spirit is without ANY works - it's just that WE might not be able to discern them - OR we might think we see confirmations of "works" that are, in fact, misleading, as that God would see them as "unrighteous" ones.

One must admit that the Matthew 7:21-23 passage is very troubling:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

How incredible that one could APPEAR so committed to doing "MANY" works in Jesus name and yet not be saved. And, the indication is that this isn't the rare false Christian/unbeliever doing these things, but that "many" will demonstrate these unworthy works, and yet will nonetheless end up in Hell. Wow! And especially scary, these people are self-deluded into believing they are saved, but are not.

Notice Jesus didn't deny that they did those works; He denied them on the basis that HE didn't know THEM. The fact is that the Law was given to show men that we couldn't get into heaven on the basis of our deeds. The only way we get righteousness in the eyes of God is via faith in Christ. These men obviously won't have that, and they'll try to persuade Christ on the basis of their works. The same concept is demonstrated in Luke 18:9-14 and to a subtler sense, Luke 7:36-50.

[RickD]

Let's clear this "genuine faith" thing up. There's no such thing as genuine faith. There's just "faith".

We all agree that faith in this context, is a saving faith in the person of Jesus Christ. It's been said that "not genuine" faith, is the faith that demons have. But that's not really faith at all. Faith in Christ, is a trust in him. Demons don't trust in Christ, so that means they don't have faith.

Faith is faith. Saving faith puts its trust in Christ.

[PaulSacramento]

I would say that, pressed to greater clarity, I pretty much agree with how DBowling states his take on this. But the way he has clarified is not how I hear LS adherents assert things, which are often well laden with fear-mongering DOisms asserted needed for proof - proof that can never be enough or validated (by man). But, especially with a guy like Paul Washer, who marries his Reformed beliefs to such teaching - well, it can cause a lot of damage and fear. I would agree that no true believer with the Holy Spirit is without ANY works - it's just that WE might not be able to discern them - OR we might think we see confirmations of "works" that are, in fact, misleading, as that God would see them as "unrighteous" ones.

One must admit that the Matthew 7:21-23 passage is very troubling:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

How incredible that one could APPEAR so committed to doing "MANY" works in Jesus name and yet not be saved. And, the indication is that this isn't the rare false Christian/unbeliever doing these things, but that "many" will demonstrate these unworthy works, and yet will nonetheless end up in Hell. Wow! And especially scary, these people are self-deluded into believing they are saved, but are not.

Well said.
Sometimes we forget that passage and how people DID do things that one would consider true acts of the HS ( like casting out demons) and yet, those acts were empty because their intent was tainted ( they probably did them for THEIR glory and not Christ's) and Christ did not "know" them because of it.

[PaulSacramento]

By the way, this part:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Is crucial and I have often been asked, "well what will is that?"

I answer here:

Luke 9:35
1John 3:23
John 6:29

[SoCalExile]

Let's clear this "genuine faith" thing up. There's no such thing as genuine faith. There's just "faith".

We all agree that faith in this context, is a saving faith in the person of Jesus Christ. It's been said that "not genuine" faith, is the faith that demons have. But that's not really faith at all. Faith in Christ, is a trust in him. Demons don't trust in Christ, so that means they don't have faith.

Faith is faith. Saving faith puts its trust in Christ.

James 2:19 is not referring to salvation at all. It's talking about a profession of faith being empty to a non-believer if it's not backed up by action.

[SoCalExile]

By the way, this part:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Is crucial and I have often been asked, "well what will is that?"

I answer here:

Luke 9:35
1John 3:23
John 6:29

John 6:40

[RickD]

Let's clear this "genuine faith" thing up. There's no such thing as genuine faith. There's just "faith".

We all agree that faith in this context, is a saving faith in the person of Jesus Christ. It's been said that "not genuine" faith, is the faith that demons have. But that's not really faith at all. Faith in Christ, is a trust in him. Demons don't trust in Christ, so that means they don't have faith.

Faith is faith. Saving faith puts its trust in Christ.

James 2:19 is not referring to salvation at all. It's talking about a profession of faith being empty to a non-believer if it's not backed up by action.

I was just referring to the LS belief about "genuine faith", and some other supposed kind of faith that demons have. DBowling mentioned that they were two different kinds of faith. I just wanted to point out that there's just faith.

[DBowling]

I was just referring to the LS belief about "genuine faith", and some other supposed kind of faith that demons have. DBowling mentioned that they were two different kinds of faith. I just wanted to point out that there's just faith.

Here's my quote...

1. LS identifies the correct object of genuine faith.
According to Scripture the object of genuine faith is the person of Jesus Christ.

Many presentations of the Gospel identify the object of faith as intellectual knowledge about a set of theological truths.

Genuine faith places its trust in the person of Jesus Christ...
not my personal knowledge of key theological truths.

That is the difference between the dead faith of the demons and a living faith that works in James 2.

I'm noting that the difference between what I call 'genuine faith' and 'dead faith' is the object of the faith.

According to James the demons 'believe' certain things about God. But that kind of faith is dead, because the object of that faith is not the person of Jesus Christ.

We're actually saying the same thing.
Yes... I agree faith is faith...
But the key to 'saving faith' or 'genuine faith' or whatever we wish to call it is the 'object' of that faith.

We are saved through faith in the person of Jesus Christ (what I referred to as 'genuine faith')
We are not saved through faith in knowledge about theological truths (what James refers to as dead faith)

In Christ

[abelcainsbrother]

Jesus made salvation too easy for religious people.Religion most of the time is right out in the open for people to see but sometimes there is hidden religion doctrine that is very subtle and can be deceptive but the bottom line is any doctrine that tries to make it about what we do,or how good we can be,or what we must do to find favor with God,etc are always signs of religion and it hurts the gospel and without even realizing it puts you in bondage actually and causes a person to totally ignore that it is only through Jesus that we are saved,redeemed,made righteous before God,are perfected by him and only through him through the work he did.It is never about us and always about what Jesus did,it is a gift God gave us through Jesus and we enter into a blood covenant with God through Jesus and his shed blood the moment we are saved and from that point forward there is absolutely nothing we can do to make our selves more saved than we already are,we are as saved as we will ever be the moment we are saved,we can only grow by being led by the Spirit by our faith.

[DBowling]

Let me address a couple of points that I didn't follow up on earlier

DBowling wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone here does agree with that...
There are a number of posts in this thread where the post-salvation results of sanctification have been equated with works-salvation and Pharisaic legalism

That's because LS doesn't teach "post salvation". They teach that sanctification and salvation are one. Which means that the works performed during sanctification, are works that have to be performed during salvation, according to LS. Which again, if they're necessary for salvation, then it's a works based salvation.

I strongly disagree that LS teaches works based salvation!
And LS explicitly states that the works in question are "post salvation" works.

From our "representative link"
http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A ... -salvation

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

The explicit position of LS is that
- God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation
- believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works

The LS "works" are post salvation works that occur during the process of sanctification.

That is why I keep throwing the "strawman misrepresentation" flag when people falsely accuse LS of works salvation.

RickD wrote:
But what you're missing, is that in order for a believer to grow in Christ, in this life, he must cooperate with the Holy Spirit. In order to be a disciple, one must choose to live by the spirit, and not live by the flesh.

DBowling wrote:
In the second sentence I would phrase it as "grow as a disciple" (as opposed to becoming a disciple), because I believe a person becomes a disciple of Jesus when they put their trust in Jesus. During the process of sanctification a disciple draws closer to and becomes more like his master.

Fwiw, I said "In order to BE a disciple", not BECOME a disciple.
And I agree that anyone who is a disciple, begins his discipleship at the time of trusting Christ.

We seem to agree on what it takes to be a disciple. Commitment, drawing closer to God, living by the spirit, etc. But I'm not sure if you agree with LS, that all who trust Christ, automatically and necessarily become disciples. Or if you agree with what I'm saying, that in order to be a disciple, or follow Christ, there has to be a cooperation on the believer's part. It's not just an automatic thing where the Holy Spirit "possesses" a believer, and completely takes over.

I agree with the LS position that when you put your trust in Jesus Christ you become a disciple of Jesus Christ.

In Christ

[SoCalExile]

DB, you quote one part of MacArthur's site that supports your claim that he doesn't teach salvation by works, then you ignore the parts that teach salvation by works. It comes down to DOING things to have "saving faith" or "genuine faith":

-Turn from sin.
-Persevere in the faith
-Live a changed life
-Stop a pattern of sin
-Obey God's commandments
-Love your brothers
-Abide in God's Word
-Keep God's Word
-Do good works
-Continue in the faith
-Include "all that pertains to life and godliness"
-Unconditional surrender
-Long to obey Him
-Evidence true faith
-Persevere in the faith

All this is at minimum, euphemisms for works; and you have to show them to be saved.

[DBowling]

DB, you quote one part of MacArthur's site that supports your claim that he doesn't teach salvation by works, then you ignore the parts that teach salvation by works. It comes down to DOING things to have "saving faith" or "genuine faith":

-Turn from sin.

Repentance is not works...

-Persevere in the faith
-Live a changed life
-Stop a pattern of sin
-Obey God's commandments
-Love your brothers
-Abide in God's Word
-Keep God's Word
-Do good works
-Continue in the faith
-Include "all that pertains to life and godliness"
-Unconditional surrender
-Long to obey Him
-Evidence true faith
-Persevere in the faith

All part of post salvation sanctification

In Christ

[SoCalExile]

DB, you quote one part of MacArthur's site that supports your claim that he doesn't teach salvation by works, then you ignore the parts that teach salvation by works. It comes down to DOING things to have "saving faith" or "genuine faith":

-Turn from sin.

Repentance is not works...

-Persevere in the faith
-Live a changed life
-Stop a pattern of sin
-Obey God's commandments
-Love your brothers
-Abide in God's Word
-Keep God's Word
-Do good works
-Continue in the faith
-Include "all that pertains to life and godliness"
-Unconditional surrender
-Long to obey Him
-Evidence true faith
-Persevere in the faith

All part of post salvation sanctification

In Christ

Yet if you doesn't happen you don't have "genuine faith"; which in the practical life of a person, is no different than saying you have to do it to be saved.

it makes no sense to judge the salvation of a man on standards he doesn't have to meet in order to be saved in the first place.

[SoCalExile]

So, what's the difference? I can't tell:

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny"
- John MacArthur (Hard to Believe, p. 93)

“Faith is a principle of action and power. Whenever we work toward a worthy goal, we exercise faith. We show our hope for something that we cannot yet see. ..You can exercise faith in Christ when we have an assurance that He exists, a correct idea of His character, and a knowledge that we are striving to live according to His will.”
- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (True to the Faith, p. 54)