The Holy Trinity

[bizzt]

So People Know what the Christadelphian Belief is

"Our Beliefs

The Bible
We believe that the Bible is God's only revealed message to mankind, given to bring responsive individuals to the obedience of faith. The Bible is our only authority and we teach that it should be read prayerfully and with care at every opportunity.
Acts 17v11, Rom 16v26, 2 Tim 3v16-17, 2 Pet 1v20-21

God
There is only one eternal, immortal God. Jesus Christ is his only begotten son and the Holy Spirit is his power.
Isa 45v5-7, Luke 1v35, Acts 1v8, 1Cor 8v6, 1Tim 1v17, 2v5

Man
Man is mortal and a sinner before God. His whole being is prone to sin and the punishment for sin is death the end of all life.
Jer 17v9, Mark 7v21-23, Rom 3v23, Jms 1v13-15, Rom 6v23, Ecc 9v5-10, Psa 146v4

Jesus
In his love, God sent his son, the man Jesus into the world to save men from their sins. Those who believe in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.
Mat 1v20-21, 3v17, Luke 1v35, John 3v16

Hope
The only hope of life after death is the resurrection of the body and everlasting life in God's kingdom on earth.
Psa 49v12-20, John 11v25-26, Acts 24v15, Rom 8v22-39, 1 Cor 15v12,50, Rev 5v10, 20v4

Sacrifice of Christ
Jesus was sinless. He died to show God's righteousness and to redeem those who receive this sacrifice by faith. God raised him from the dead, gave him immortality, granted him all authority in heaven and on earth, and set him as the mediator between God and man.
Rom 3v21-26, Eph 1v19-23, 1 Tim 2v5-6, Heb 4v14-16

Return of Jesus
Jesus will return to the earth soon. Then he will raise many of the dead, judge them with the living, and give his faithful followers everlasting life in the kingdom of God.
Dan 12v2, Mat 25v31-34, Luke 21v20-32, John 5v28-29, Acts 1v11, 2 Tim 4v1, Rev 22v12

Kingdom of God
The kingdom of God will be established on earth. Jesus will be king in Jerusalem, his dominion worldwide and his government will bring eternal righteousness and peace.
Pss 72, Isa 2v2-4, 9v6-9, 11v1-9, 61, Jer 3v17, Dan 2v44, 7v14,27, Acts 3v21

The Promises
The Gospel is inseparable from the promises which God made to Abraham and David in Old Testament times. These promises find their fulfilment in Jesus Christ.
Gen 13v14-17, 22v15-18, 2 Sam 7v12,16, Luke 1v31-33, Gal 3v6-9,16,26-29

The Way of Salvation
The way to enter the kingdom of God is by faith. This involves belief in the Bible and obedience to its requirements that men and women confess their sins, repent, be baptised and follow Jesus faithfully.
Mat 16v24-27, Mark 16v16, John 3v3-5, Acts 2v37-38, 4v12, 1 Thess 2v13, 2 Tim 3v15, Heb 11v6
"

http://www.thechristadelphians.org/foru ... topic=2978

[Byblos]

And so people know what the differences are:

Some Important Differences

Often we are asked, "How are you different from other Christian groups"? Apart from our distinctive organisation (with no clergy or hierarchy), some of our doctrines are quite different from most churches.

For example, we reject the doctrine of a 'Trinity'. This doctrine developed in the 300 years after Jesus died as a result of disputes within the orthodox church. The Bible teaches that Jesus was the Son of God but nowhere does it speak of him 'pre-existing' in heaven as "God the Son".

We also reject the idea of an "immortal soul" that goes to heaven at death. The Bible teaches that the only hope for eternal life is through a resurrection when Jesus returns.

Another difference is that we believe that baptism is essential and for adults only. We believe that sprinkling of babies is not baptism.

We also believe that the Bible uses the 'devil' as a symbol of sinful human nature, and so we reject the doctrine of a supernatural tempter.

http://www.thechristadelphians.org/foru ... topic=2978[/quote]

[Byblos]

Here's a little more for your reading pleasure. This is straight out of Catholic doctrine on the Holy Trinity.

Part of my 'reading pleasure' was observing how this article contradicts an argument you made in your last post:

The supernatural appearance at the baptism of Christ is often cited as an explicit revelation of Trinitarian doctrine, given at the very commencement of the Ministry.

This, it seems to us, is a mistake. The Evangelists, it is true, see in it a manifestation of the Three Divine Persons. Yet, apart from Christ's subsequent teaching, the dogmatic meaning of the scene would hardly have been understood.

Moreover, the Gospel narratives appear to signify that none but Christ and the Baptist were privileged to see the Mystic Dove, and hear the words attesting the Divine sonship of the Messias.

Emphasis mine. Most of that article simply repeats the arguments I've already dealt with, but I might run through it more closely tomorrow to pick up any I missed.

I am completely prepared to deal with any of your posts on this subject. I don't mind if you copy/paste 10 pages at a time - that's fine with me.

All work I post is my own, unless otherwise indicated (when you go to some of my links, you'll find that several of these replies which I quote are actually someone else's work, my brother's in fact).

It's really quite entertaining to see that the only part you zeroed in on is the part that seems to show a contradiction when in fact it was clarifying a misconception often used to explain the trinity.

And I congratulate you and your brother on doing the work yourselves. Although I'm not certain why you mention that, as if utilizing someone else's work is somehow inferior. Perhaps while you're at it you should have invented your own alphabet and your own language and used that to explain your beliefs. Afterall, why rely on an existing language?

In any case, here's more material (some of it was already posted but this is more complete). I will quote the parts pertaining to Jesus being called God. This is not my work but it was compiled by very dear online friends of mine.

The link is posted at the end and it contains the complete work including:

# Christ called God directly
# Trinity discussed in scripture
# Examples of the Trinity
# Titles of Christ
# More on the God Head
# Power/positions/abilities only God possess:
# More prophecies

Christ Called God directly:

John 1: 1 - 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Here John calls Christ God and In the beginning with God. And we'll see this in Geneses as well shortly.

John 20:26-29
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Again Thomas calls him God than worships him! And the only thing Christ repukes him of is being so slow to believe and give glory to him.

Isaiah 7:10-14
10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD. 13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:21-25
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Jesus is called Emmanuel, which means God with us! And prophesied by Isaiah who is incredible.

Psalms 45:6-9
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. 9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Hebrews 1:7-9
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God anoints God; we will get into this again later. But as you see Christ is called God by the father.

Isaiah 9: 6- 7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Here Christ is called the mighty God and everlasting father. We will expound on this also shortly.

This is just a taste, 7 complete verses calling Jesus directly God.

Where it mentions the Trinity:

I John 5: 7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Once again saying Christ(the Word as said in John, revelation, and several other places) the Spirit, and the father are one.

John 14:5-11
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Again, Christ says if you see him you see the father, Phillip asks to see the father and Christ says your looking at him!

Rev. 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Again, showing their oneness, yet separateness. Jesus declares He is the Almighty, and also the Lamb.

John 10: 25-31
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus just flat out comes out and says he and the father are one! And again the Jews tried to stone him, but his time had not come.

Mt 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

They are all one in the same, this makes the Trinity. Once again showing there completeness together.

John 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Again saying he and his father are one, and he wants to church to be one body as they are one.

Mark 1:10-11
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


The spirit descended like a dove on Jesus, and the voice from heaven proclaimed the Father's approval of Jesus as his divine Son. That Jesus is God's divine Son is the foundation for all we read about Jesus in the Gospels. Here we see three members of the Trinity together - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Here's the link:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/sh ... art=1&vc=1

[Fortigurn]

Here's a little more for your reading pleasure. This is straight out of Catholic doctrine on the Holy Trinity.

Part of my 'reading pleasure' was observing how this article contradicts an argument you made in your last post:

The supernatural appearance at the baptism of Christ is often cited as an explicit revelation of Trinitarian doctrine, given at the very commencement of the Ministry.

This, it seems to us, is a mistake. The Evangelists, it is true, see in it a manifestation of the Three Divine Persons. Yet, apart from Christ's subsequent teaching, the dogmatic meaning of the scene would hardly have been understood.

Moreover, the Gospel narratives appear to signify that none but Christ and the Baptist were privileged to see the Mystic Dove, and hear the words attesting the Divine sonship of the Messias.

Emphasis mine. Most of that article simply repeats the arguments I've already dealt with, but I might run through it more closely tomorrow to pick up any I missed.

I am completely prepared to deal with any of your posts on this subject. I don't mind if you copy/paste 10 pages at a time - that's fine with me.

All work I post is my own, unless otherwise indicated (when you go to some of my links, you'll find that several of these replies which I quote are actually someone else's work, my brother's in fact).

It's really quite entertaining to see that the only part you zeroed in on is the part that seems to show a contradiction when in fact it was clarifying a misconception often used to explain the trinity.

I zeroed in on that point because it was the most glaring contradiction of what you had written previously. Most of the rest was already covered in my previous post, and it was about 1:30am where I live, and high time I was in bed.

And I congratulate you and your brother on doing the work yourselves. Although I'm not certain why you mention that, as if utilizing someone else's work is somehow inferior.

I mentioned it because I think it's important to reference one's sources. It's a habit I picked up during school.

Perhaps while you're at it you should have invented your own alphabet and your own language and used that to explain your beliefs. Afterall, why rely on an existing language?

Surely there's no need to be sarcastic and bitter?

In any case, here's more material (some of it was already posted but this is more complete). I will quote the parts pertaining to Jesus being called God. This is not my work but it was compiled by very dear online friends of mine.

I'm afraid you'll have to do a lot more than show me quotes which allegedly say that Jesus is God. That is not the trinity. You have to show me quotes which say that God is three persons in one being.

The link is posted at the end and it contains the complete work including:

# Christ called God directly
# Trinity discussed in scripture
# Examples of the Trinity
# Titles of Christ
# More on the God Head
# Power/positions/abilities only God possess:
# More prophecies

Ok, let's take a look.

Christ Called God directly:

John 1: 1 - 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Here John calls Christ God and In the beginning with God. And we'll see this in Geneses as well shortly.

I'm sorry, where does John call Christ 'God'? I see he says Christ was 'the Word made flesh', but he does not call Christ 'God'.

John 20:26-29
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Again Thomas calls him God than worships him! And the only thing Christ repukes him of is being so slow to believe and give glory to him.

Thomas does not in fact call Christ God. You are making the mistake of exegeting the English. The Greek word used here (THEOS), does not necessarily refer to God Himself. It is used to translate the Hebrew word 'elohim' (discussed earlier), which does not necessarily refer to God Himself.

The word 'elohim', for example, is used of men in the Old Testament:

Psalm 82:
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

It is used of men who have been appointed to an exalted position by God. There is no evidence that Thomas was using THEOS in the sense that he believed Christ was God, still less that he believed in the trinity.

Moreover, the entire point of Thomas' declaration is his acknowledgement of the resurrection of Christ. The context of the passage makes it clear that this is the purpose for including Thomas' declaration, not to prove that Jesus is God.

Look at what John says here, right after the declaration of Thomas:

John 20:
31 But these are recorded so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

You claim that these things are recorded so that we may believe that Jesus is God the Son, but John says that these things are recorded that we may believe that Jesus is the son of God. I'll take John's word for it thanks.

By the way, I saw no worship of Christ by Thomas there. The word 'worship' doesn't even appear in the text.

Isaiah 7:10-14
10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD. 13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:21-25
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus is called Emmanuel, which means God with us! And prophesied by Isaiah who is incredible.

Firstly, your entire argument is that because Christ is given the title 'God with us', that this necessarily means he is God. But titles do not make people God. Many other men had titles which contained the name of God, but this did not make them God. One of the angels was given the name 'Yahweh', but this did not make that angel God.

Secondly, you neglect the fact that this prophecy had an initial fulfillment in the days of Ahaz. But are you seriously going to tell me that the boy born in Ahaz's time who was called 'Immanuel' was God? Or Christ as God?

Psalms 45:6-9
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. 9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Hebrews 1:7-9
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God anoints God; we will get into this again later. But as you see Christ is called God by the father.

Firstly, you have to acknowledge that the very idea that God has a 'God' is a massive contradiction in terms.

Secondly, we're back to the old problem of you exegeting the English, not the Hebrew or Greek. The Hebrew word in Psalm 45 here is again the word 'elohim', and it is being applied to King David (who was, as you and I both know, a mortal man).

See the NET's footnote on this passage:

sn O God. The king is clearly the addressee here, as in vv. 2-5 and 7-9. Rather than taking the statement at face value, many prefer to emend the text because the concept of deifying the earthly king is foreign to ancient Israelite thinking (cf. NEB “your throne is like God's throne, eternal”).

However, it is preferable to retain the text and take this statement as another instance of the royal hyperbole that permeates the royal psalms. Because the Davidic king is God's vice-regent on earth, the psalmist addresses him as if he were God incarnate. God energizes the king for battle and accomplishes justice through him.

A similar use of hyperbole appears in Isa 9:6, where the ideal Davidic king of the eschaton is given the title “Mighty God” (see the note on this phrase there).

Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle. According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Rameses II as follows: “No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique” (see M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67).

Ps 45:6 and Isa 9:6 probably envision a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king's enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself.

Emphasis mine. There's more specifically on Hebrews 1 here and here.

Isaiah 9: 6- 7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Here Christ is called the mighty God and everlasting father. We will expound on this also shortly.

Let me expound on it now, using the footnote of the NET.

Firstly, the note on 'mighty God':

19tn rwbg is probably an attributive adjective (“mighty God”), though one might translate “God is a warrior” or “God is mighty.” Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways. A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see Hayes and Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way.

Ps 45:6 addresses the Davidic king as “God” because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth. Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle.

According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Rameses II as follows: “No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique” (See M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67). According to proponents of this view, Isa 9:6 probably envisions a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king's enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself.

The other option is to regard this title as a reference to God, confronting Isaiah's readers with the divinity of this promised “child.” The use of this same title that clearly refers to God in a later passage (Isa 10:21) supports this interpretation. Other passages depict Yahweh as the great God and great warrior (Deut 10:17; Jer. 32:18).

Although this connection of a child who is born with deity is unparalleled in any earlier biblical texts, Isaiah's use of this title to make this connection represents Isaiah's attempt (at God's behest) to grow Israel in their understanding of the ideal Davidic king for whom they long.

Emphasis mine.

On the note 'everlasting father', the NET usefully points out that this passage does not support the trinity, and cannot be used to support the trinity:

20tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the “Son” is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the “Father.”)

Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of “father” see Isa 22:21 and Job 29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of “father” is not limited to the Bible.

In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 b.c.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: “To some I was a father, to others I was a mother.” In another inscription (ca. 800 b.c.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him “a father and a mother” to his people. (See J. Pritchard, ANET, 499-500.)

The use of “everlasting” might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king's long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1 Kgs 1:31; Pss 21:4-6; 61:6-7; 72:5, 17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title “Mighty God”) is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.

You would have me believe that Jesus is the Father, but the trinitarian doctrine forbids this - it is called 'confusing the persons'.

This is just a taste, 7 complete verses calling Jesus directly God.

I have shown that none of these veres call Jesus God. More importantly, they do not mention the trinity - either explicitly or implicitly.

Where it mentions the Trinity:

I John 5: 7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Once again saying Christ(the Word as said in John, revelation, and several other places) the Spirit, and the father are one.

I note with disappointment that you are not reading my posts. I have already addressed this verse. I shall now address it again.

This reference to the 'three that bear record in heaven' is not recognised as part of the original Scriptures by all reputable text criticism scholarship. The reading found in the KJV is spurious. It is is absent from every Greek manuscript except eight, all dating from the sixteenth century or later. These include 61, 88, 221, 429, 636, 918, and 2318. Of these 8 manuscripts, four contain the passage as a variant reading in the margin, added by a later hand.

Erasmus, in the first two editions of the Textus Receptus, did not include the passage, stating that he could not find it in any of the Greek codices available to him. After considerable pressure (and possibly the presentation of a ready-made "ancient copy"), Erasmus included it in his third edition. From here, it made its way into the KJV.

Bruce Metzger comments:

The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late rescension of the Latin Vulgate...

The passage is quoted by none of the Greek fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lutheran Council in 1215.

The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian, Cyprian, Augustine), or in the Vulgate (B) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied AD 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before AD 716]) or © as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus 9th centur.)

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chapter 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385CE) or to his follower Bishop Instantius...

Metzger, Bruce M. (1971), A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament

I invite you to read the summary of evidence against it in the NET footnote to this passage.

John 14:5-11
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Again, Christ says if you see him you see the father, Phillip asks to see the father and Christ says your looking at him!

Again, you are digging yourself into a theological hole. If I am to believe you, this passage is saying that Jesus is the Father. But this is completely contradictory to the trinitarian dogma - it is 'confusing the persons'. Only a Oneness Pentecostal would make this argument.

Christ himself explains that he is referring to the fact that he represents God, because he is doing God's work on earth:

John 14:
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds.

There is nothing in Christ's words here which tell us that he is making a claim to be God.

Rev. 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Again, showing their oneness, yet separateness. Jesus declares He is the Almighty, and also the Lamb.

How does this show 'their oneness, yet separateness'? And where's the Holy Spirit? Where does this say that Jesus is the Almighty and the Lamb? If that were the case, then the Father would not be here.

John 10: 25-31
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus just flat out comes out and says he and the father are one! And again the Jews tried to stone him, but his time had not come.

I have already explained this passage previously (please read my posts).

Your appeal to this proves to much. If you believe that Christ is making an ontological statement here, then the unavoidable conclusion is that Christ is the Father. Why do you think Oneness Pentecostals love this verse?

But Christ is not making an ontological statement. The unity to which he referred in John 10:30 is the same unity he speaks of in relation to his followers, himself, and God:

John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.

This is pretty strong stuff:

* That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee

* That they also may be one in us

* That they may be one, even as we are one

We are one with Christ and his Father, in the same way that Christ was one with his Father. If Christ meant 'I am one of the persons of the Godhead' when he said 'I and the Father are one', then this means we are all persons of the Godhead also. More here.

Mt 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

They are all one in the same, this makes the Trinity. Once again showing there completeness together.

This says nothing about them being 'all one in the same', and nothing about the trinity. Please give details of your argument that this proves the trinity.

John 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Again saying he and his father are one, and he wants to church to be one body as they are one.

Thank you, this proves exactly what I have said before (I have already quoted these passages, but you appear not to have read my posts). It says that Christ is 'one' with God in the same way that we are 'one' with God. Unless you want to make us part of the trinity, you have to acknowledge that this means both we and Christ are not 'one' with God in the sense of being part of the Godhead.

Mark 1:10-11
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The spirit descended like a dove on Jesus, and the voice from heaven proclaimed the Father's approval of Jesus as his divine Son. That Jesus is God's divine Son is the foundation for all we read about Jesus in the Gospels. Here we see three members of the Trinity together - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

This says absolutely nothing about the trinity. You are simply begging the question. We are told repeatedly that Christ is the son of God. We are nowhere told that he is God the Son.

Here's the link:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum/sh ... art=1&vc=1

Thanks, my link in return is here. If there's a passage or argument in that link of yours which isn't covered in the link of mine, do let me know.

[Fortigurn]

As I said before, it is pointless with you. You argue but you do not read the proof presented before your very own eyes. And when you do read you do not comprehend. Two gigantic posts I have provided WITH SCRIPTURES and their CLEAR meanings yet you choose not to see.

It's not the case that I 'choose not to see'. I have gone through each of your arguments and answered them directly. In many cases I have actually used material from trinitarian scholars to do so.

Tell me, where do you see the words Christian or Christianity in the Bible? Are we to assume by their absence that christianity does not or should not exist? Because by that logic not even your false christianity exists. Your argument is futile and self-annihilating (no surprise there).

Firstly, this is a straw man because I am not arguing that the absence of the word 'trinity' from the Bible proves that God is not a trinity (I have said this before).

Secondly, the word 'Christians' is in fact in the Bible:

Acts 11:
26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught a significant number of people. Now it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.

So is the word 'Christian':

Acts 26:
28 Agrippa said to Paul, “In such a short time are you persuading me to become a Christian?”

But as I said, I am not arguing that the absence of the word 'trinity' from the Bible proves that God is not a trinity (I have said this before).

Tell me, where do you see the word Monotheism in the Bible? No? It doesn't exist? Are we then to assume no monotheistic religion can be true because the word does not exist in the Bible?

I am not arguing that the absence of the word 'trinity' from the Bible proves that God is not a trinity (I have said this before).

I have shown you all the scripture you could ever need, yet you do not see. I can only hope and pray (yes, to the one God/Jesus/Holy Spirit) that one day you get enlightened and truly see.

It's not the case that I 'choose not to see'. I have gone through each of your arguments and answered them directly. In many cases I have actually used material from trinitarian scholars to do so.

[Fortigurn]

Could everyone please provide the link as well to their Material when Posting due to Copyright issues, and Plagerism

Thanks Guys

I agree. It is precisely for this reason that I have indicated which work is mine and which is the work of others. I've experienced other forums using this protocol, and I'm used to it.

[Fortigurn]

I would also like to ask a Simple Question

If Jesus Recognized the Father, and also the Comforter the one who would come after him and he recognized himself as the Son. Then where is the Problem??

I don't have any problem with that. It's the idea that a true Christian is defined as one who believes in the trinity which I have a problem with.

I don't find that teaching anywhere in the Bible. I do find that it is 'eternal life' to believe that the Father is the only true God.

I also find that there is one God, that the one God is one person, the Father, and that Jesus Christ is a man who is the mediator between God and men.

[Kurieuo]

I also find that there is one God, that the one God is one person, the Father, and that Jesus Christ is a man who is the mediator between God and men.

And it is definately "Christ is a man" that would separate you from mainstream Christianity towards being a cult of Christianity (by cult I do not mean insult, but simply mean one who distorts mainstream orthodox teachings of Christianity).

I would be interested in understanding how you think it is possible for Christ to redeem humanity if Christ were not God? How can a creature redeem another creature who has offended God? If I greatly sin against you, and my friend who is your friend says not to worry about it I'm forgiven, is such reasonable?

Kurieuo

[Fortigurn]

I also find that there is one God, that the one God is one person, the Father, and that Jesus Christ is a man who is the mediator between God and men.

And it is definately "Christ is a man" that would separate you from mainstream Christianity towards being a cult of Christianity (by cult I do not mean insult, but simply mean one who distorts mainstream orthodox teachings of Christianity).

Could you show me this from Scripture please? I'm aware that the apostles taught that Jesus is a man.

I would be interested in understanding how you think it is possible for Christ to redeem humanity if Christ were not God? How can a creature redeem another creature who has offended God?

I do not believe in the penal substitution theory of the atonement (a doctrine which managed to escape the notice of Christianity until Anselm in the 11th century). Pardon me for preferring the Bible's version over an ide which didn't occur to anyone until about 1,000 years after Christ died.

If I greatly sin against you, and my friend who is your friend says not to worry about it I'm forgiven, is such reasonable?

No that is not reasonable. It is up to you to forgive.

[Kurieuo]

I also find that there is one God, that the one God is one person, the Father, and that Jesus Christ is a man who is the mediator between God and men.

And it is definately "Christ is a man" that would separate you from mainstream Christianity towards being a cult of Christianity (by cult I do not mean insult, but simply mean one who distorts mainstream orthodox teachings of Christianity).

Could you show me this from Scripture please? I'm aware that the apostles taught that Jesus is a man.

Let's look at the first chapter of John (John 1:1-18), which clearly indicates that Christ is God. Perhaps you would follow after the JWs to distort the end verse 1 to read "and the Word was [a] [g]od." Whatever your reasons are for rejecting this passage does not matter for the point I wish to make here. Instead, zoom in on the words, "All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Now only God is eternal. If everything that came into existence was by Christ, and apart from Christ nothing came into being that has come into being, then Christ is eternal (not a creature) and therefore Christ must be God Almighty.

Additionally Scripture reveals Jehovah and Christ as Creator, Alpha and Omega, I AM, Judge, King, Light, Saviour, and Shepherd, and many other things. You can observe comparable Scriptures for each of the titles I just stated at http://www.str.org/free/studies/yahweh.htm.

Further passages I'd cite include John 20:28-29—Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." and John 10:30-33—"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

In an article on this website, Jesus Christ Never Said He Was God?, it comments regarding this latter passage, "Obviously, the Jews did not think that this claim of being one with the Father referred to purpose. They knew that He was claiming equality with God, which is why they tried to stone Him. In addition, Jesus said outright that He was Lord and claimed to be the first and the last, an obvious trait reserved for God."

Again, Christ is many times designated with attributes that only rightly belong to God alone. On the GodandScience.org website, a list has been compiled of these at http://www.godandscience.org/cults/songod.html.

If I greatly sin against you, and my friend who is your friend says not to worry about it I'm forgiven, is such reasonable?

No that is not reasonable. It is up to you to forgive.

I do not entirely understand what you believe, but from your words I am assuming you don't believe it is through Christ that our sins are forgiven? Do you believe our sins are forgiven through Christ? Or that it is through Christ one is saved?

Kurieuo

[Fortigurn]

I also find that there is one God, that the one God is one person, the Father, and that Jesus Christ is a man who is the mediator between God and men.

And it is definately "Christ is a man" that would separate you from mainstream Christianity towards being a cult of Christianity (by cult I do not mean insult, but simply mean one who distorts mainstream orthodox teachings of Christianity).

Could you show me this from Scripture please? I'm aware that the apostles taught that Jesus is a man.

Let's look at the first chapter of John (John 1:1-18), which clearly indicates that Christ is God. Perhaps you would follow after the JWs to distort the end verse 1 to read "and the Word was [a] [g]od." Whatever your reasons are for rejecting this passage does not matter for the point I wish to make here.

No I do not read this as 'a god'.

Instead, zoom in on the words, "All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Since it is a word which is being spoken of, why do you refer to it as 'Him'?

Now only God is eternal. If everything that came into existence was by Christ, and apart from Christ nothing came into being that has come into being, then Christ is eternal (not a creature) and therefore Christ must be God Almighty.

But there is no mention of Christ here. Instead we have the word of God (see Psalm 33:6).

Additionally Scripture reveals Jehovah and Christ as Creator, Alpha and Omega, I AM, Judge, King, Light, Saviour, and Shepherd, and many other things. You can observe comparable Scriptures for each of the titles I just stated at http://www.str.org/free/studies/yahweh.htm.

As I have already pointed out, titles are not enough to prove Divinity. All you're showing me there is that God has bestowed certain titles on Christ. I agree that He has done this. This does not make Christ God. God bestowed His Name on an angel, but that did not make the angel God.

Further passages I'd cite include John 20:28-29—Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." and John 10:30-33—"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

If you had read my posts (which you appear not to have done), you would have seen me answer these passages directly.

In an article on this website, Jesus Christ Never Said He Was God?, it comments regarding this latter passage, "Obviously, the Jews did not think that this claim of being one with the Father referred to purpose. They knew that He was claiming equality with God, which is why they tried to stone Him. In addition, Jesus said outright that He was Lord and claimed to be the first and the last, an obvious trait reserved for God."

I have answered these in my posts already.

Again, Christ is many times designated with attributes that only rightly belong to God alone. On the GodandScience.org website, a list has been compiled of these at http://www.godandscience.org/cults/songod.html.

Those quotes can be grouped into the following categories:

* Passages in which Christ bears one of God's titles: This does not make him God, since other men and angels have borne titles of God, and even the name of God.

* Inaccurate statements: For example, Micah 5:2 does not say that Christ is eternal in the same way that God is eternal, and standard Evangelical commentaries today agree that this does not say any such thing.

* Logical fallacies: It is argued that if Christ could forgive sins, then he must have been God, since God forgives sins, but this neglects to take into account the fact that this authority was delegated to Christ by God, and that the same authority was delegated by Christ to his apostles. Numerous other examples of this fallacy are on that page (the same goes for the 'judging' argument, the 'coming in glory' argument, the 'resurrects the dead' argument, the 'power and authority' argument, to name just a few).

* Theological contradictions: The page asserts that God died, and that God's blood was on the cross (exegeting Acts 20:28), which is a theological contradiction. God cannot die, and did not die. It also asserts that God the Father raised Christ, whilst asserting that God the Son raised himself (this is not only a theological contradiction, but a logical contradiction).

In short, the page makes a great argument for Oneness Pentecostalism, but not a good argument for the trinity. It fails to take any account of contemporary theological study in this area, from trinitarian scholars themselves. Embarrasingly, it repeats arguments which have been debunked by trinitarian scholars.

My link in return is here. If there's a passage or argument in that link of yours which isn't covered in the link of mine, do let me know.

If I greatly sin against you, and my friend who is your friend says not to worry about it I'm forgiven, is such reasonable?

No that is not reasonable. It is up to you to forgive.

I do not entirely understand what you believe, but from your words I am assuming you don't believe it is through Christ that our sins are forgiven? Do you believe our sins are forgiven through Christ? Or that it is through Christ one is saved?

No I am not denying any such thing. I am denying that Christ is God.

I still haven't seen a single passage from the Bible which says:

* God is three persons in one being

* True Christians must believe in the trinity

[Kurieuo]

Could you show me this from Scripture please? I'm aware that the apostles taught that Jesus is a man.

Let's look at the first chapter of John (John 1:1-18), which clearly indicates that Christ is God. Perhaps you would follow after the JWs to distort the end verse 1 to read "and the Word was [a] [g]od." Whatever your reasons are for rejecting this passage does not matter for the point I wish to make here.

No I do not read this as 'a god'.

Instead, zoom in on the words, "All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Since it is a word which is being spoken of, why do you refer to it as 'Him'?

Now only God is eternal. If everything that came into existence was by Christ, and apart from Christ nothing came into being that has come into being, then Christ is eternal (not a creature) and therefore Christ must be God Almighty.

But there is no mention of Christ here.

Are you sure about that?

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Who became flesh? Who did John testify he was not worthy to baptise? (Matthew 3) You have some difficult questions to get around. Evidentally John intended Christ in these passages.

Additionally Scripture reveals Jehovah and Christ as Creator, Alpha and Omega, I AM, Judge, King, Light, Saviour, and Shepherd, and many other things. You can observe comparable Scriptures for each of the titles I just stated at http://www.str.org/free/studies/yahweh.htm.

As I have already pointed out, titles are not enough to prove Divinity. All you're showing me there is that God has bestowed certain titles on Christ. I agree that He has done this. This does not make Christ God.

I disagree. There are only certain attributes God can have, that a created being can't have. Christ is either God or a created being. If Christ is eternal, then Christ is not a created being. Therefore Christ is God. It is that simple.

Kurieuo

[Fortigurn]

But there is no mention of Christ here.

Are you sure about that?

Quite sure.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Who became flesh? Who did John testify he was not worthy to baptise? (Matthew 3) You have some difficult questions to get around. Evidentally John intended Christ in these passages.

What you have just done is agreed with me that Jesus is described as the word made flesh. He is not described by John as the word which made all things.

Additionally Scripture reveals Jehovah and Christ as Creator, Alpha and Omega, I AM, Judge, King, Light, Saviour, and Shepherd, and many other things. You can observe comparable Scriptures for each of the titles I just stated at http://www.str.org/free/studies/yahweh.htm.

As I have already pointed out, titles are not enough to prove Divinity. All you're showing me there is that God has bestowed certain titles on Christ. I agree that He has done this. This does not make Christ God.

I disagree. There are only certain attributes God can have, that a created being can't have. Christ is either God or a created being. If Christ is eternal, then Christ is not a created being. Therefore Christ is God. It is that simple.

Could you give me a list of 'certain attributes hwich God can have, that a created being cannot have'? Can you also explain to me how God can die?

I thought that mortality was the attribute of a created being, not a Divine being.

[Kurieuo]

Fortigurn,

This is going nowhere so I will defend my own points against yours, and we can hopefully leave it at that.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Who became flesh? Who did John testify he was not worthy to baptise? (Matthew 3) You have some difficult questions to get around. Evidentally John intended Christ in these passages.

What you have just done is agreed with me that Jesus is described as the word made flesh. He is not described by John as the word which made all things.

I see it as a good sign that you shift from "there is no mention of Christ here" to now "Jesus is described as the word made flesh." If one traces the masculine pronoun "him" to representing as Jesus which by your admission Jesus is described "as the word made flesh," then I think one can rightly conclude that Jesus is being spoken of in John 1:1-2 which reads: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

In addition to passages like—
Titus 2:13-14: "13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.";

1 Timothy 3: 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8,10: "8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom... 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands"

Phillipians 2:5-8: "5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"

Finally, as passage also supporting Trinitarian doctrine:
1 John 5:7-8: "7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

I do not care to argue and push the point of Christ's divinity or the Trinitarian concept upon you though, for I don't have to time and I know you cannot accept such truths. So please don't respond as though I am attacking your beliefs, rather I am defending my own against your claims and the position GodandScience.org takes. I'd simply like to leave it up to the reader to discern for their self.

Additionally Scripture reveals Jehovah and Christ as Creator, Alpha and Omega, I AM, Judge, King, Light, Saviour, and Shepherd, and many other things. You can observe comparable Scriptures for each of the titles I just stated at http://www.str.org/free/studies/yahweh.htm.

As I have already pointed out, titles are not enough to prove Divinity. All you're showing me there is that God has bestowed certain titles on Christ. I agree that He has done this. This does not make Christ God.

I disagree. There are only certain attributes God can have, that a created being can't have. Christ is either God or a created being. If Christ is eternal, then Christ is not a created being. Therefore Christ is God. It is that simple.

Could you give me a list of 'certain attributes hwich God can have, that a created being cannot have'? Can you also explain to me how God can die?

Eternality as mentioned for one. As for God's death, I see no inconsistency with saying that an all-powerful God could have (and did) visit us in fleshly human form, and that He could have died a fleshly human death as He willed if He saw some purpose to it. Whether he did, I am happy to also leave up to the reader to explore.

Kind regards,
Kurieuo

[Fortigurn]

Fortigurn,

This is going nowhere so I will defend my own points against yours, and we can hopefully leave it at that.

I'm not allowed to debate the trinity on this forum (according to what I've been told by a Moderator), so I'll contain my comments within that injunction.

I see it as a good sign that you shift from "there is no mention of Christ here" to now "Jesus is described as the word made flesh."

That's not a 'shift' at all. You offered me the 'word' in verses 1-3, claiming that this was a reference to Christ. There is no reference to Christ here. Christ, as I have said, is not 'the word', he is described as the word made flesh.

If one traces the masculine pronoun "him" to representing as Jesus which by your admission Jesus is described "as the word made flesh," then I think one can rightly conclude that Jesus is being spoken of in John 1:1-2 which reads: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

The problem is that it's not a masculine pronoun in the sense that you think. Pronouns in Greek are not necessarily indicative of literal gender, and I can tell you now that words are genderless (but I think you know that).

In addition to passages like—
Titus 2:13-14: "13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.";

1 Timothy 3: 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 1:8,10: "8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom... 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands"

Phillipians 2:5-8: "5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"

In my previous posts (please read them), I have answered all of these passages.

Finally, as passage also supporting Trinitarian doctrine:
1 John 5:7-8: "7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

In my previous posts, I have shown that this passage is in fact a spurious passage. It does not belong in the Bible. It is a textual corruption from a late date. I have said this twice now, and provided the textual evidence from reputable textual scholars (who are also orthodox conservative trinitarians), which proves this.

The fact that people are not reading my posts does not encourage me to think that this discussion would have gone anywhere, even if it had been permitted to continue.

I do not care to argue and push the point of Christ's divinity or the Trinitarian concept upon you though, for I don't have to time and I know you cannot accept such truths. So please don't respond as though I am attacking your beliefs, rather I am defending my own against your claims and the position GodandScience.org takes. I'd simply like to leave it up to the reader to discern for their self.

I can appreciate that. It should be pointed out that all this started when it was asserted that I am not a Christian because I do not believe in the trinity.

I asked for any passage in the Bible which says such a thing. Immediately people started copy/pasting arguments for the trinity. Not only did that miss the point of what I had asked, it didn't answer the question.

I have asked my question several times now, and not received an answer. It's a question which can be answered without debating whether or not the trinity is true, but it has not yet been answered at all.

Eternality as mentioned for one.

I don't know what you mean by 'eternality', precisely, but if you mean 'has existed from all time, and will exist from all time', I've pointed out that this is not said of Christ.

As for God's death, I see no inconsistency with saying that an all-powerful God could have (and did) visit us in fleshly human form, and that He could have died a fleshly human death as He willed if He saw some purpose to it. Whether he did, I am happy to also leave up to the reader to explore.

I'm afraid that God putting on a 'man suit', pretending to be a man, and pretending to die, does not consitute God possessing the attribute of mortality.

Either God can die, or He can't. Either God died, or He didn't.