Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[EssentialSacrifice]

SoCalExile wrote:
The fly in the soup of LS and holiness teachers is Romans 7:19, where Paul admits to "practicing evil". They try to get around this by saying that Paul is talking about life before justification, but the fact is the Greek is in present tense, so he's not talking about his past. Also, if you follow the "Romans road" i.e. the logical progression in Romans that parallels a Christian life, justification came in Romans 3-4, chapter 5 onward is about sanctification and discipleship.

by RickD » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:00 am
So, taking Romans 7:19 into account, either:

1) Christians do practice evil, while remaining saved.

2) Paul is a heretic, and isn't saved.

IMO, this is a little too simple. more like:

Christians do practice evil, while remaining saved, if they do repent.
Christians do practice evil, if they do not repent cannot remain saved, but mercy is available if asked for.
Paul is a heretic, and isn't saved.... stop it !

RickD wrote:
I've said this before, sometimes I feel like a walking civil war. The new man vs. the old man. The things I don't want to do, I do. I struggle with sin constantly.

what do you do with the sin you commit, as the new man succumbs to the old ? How does OSAS work in this situation, especially if Paul is even sorta considered a heretic ?

[B. W.]

I've said this before, sometimes I feel like a walking civil war. The new man vs. the old man. The things I don't want to do, I do. I struggle with sin constantly.

It's a war that God wins!

In the meantime, the bible is our road map showing us the direction in which to travel towards. Jesus' work on the cross and Resurrection ensures victory.

The themes Clement wrote about long ago simply mirror the what is in the bible showing how one examines his or herself along the 1 1 John 1:9 way.

Here they are from Public Domain - Epistle of Clement from Esword

Epistle of Clement:
from Esword

Chap. VII. — An Exhortation to Repentance.

These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also to remind ourselves. For we are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us.

Wherefore let us give up vain and fruitless cares, and approach to the glorious and venerable rule of our holy calling. Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us.

Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him.

Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. (Gen 7:1-24; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:5) Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites; (John 3:1-10) but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.

Chap. VIII. — Continuation Respecting Repentance.

The ministers of the grace of God have, by the Holy Spirit, spoken of repentance; and the Lord of all things has himself declared with an oath regarding it, “As I live, saith the Lord, I desire not the death of the sinner, but rather his repentance;” (Eze 33:11) adding, moreover, this gracious declaration, “Repent O house of Israel, of your iniquity. (Eze 18:11) Say to the children of My people, Though your sins reach from earth to heaven, I and though they be redder (Comp. Isa 1:18) than scarlet, and blacker than sackcloth, yet if ye turn to Me with your whole heart, and say, Father! I will listen to you, as to a holy people.”

And in another place He speaks thus: “Wash you, and become clean; put away the wickedness of your souls from before mine eyes; cease from your evil ways, and learn to do well; seek out judgment, deliver the oppressed, judge the fatherless, and see that justice is done to the widow; and come, and let us reason together. He declares, Though your sins be like crimson, I will make them white as snow; though they be like scarlet, I will whiten them like wool. And if ye be willing and obey Me, ye shall eat the good of the land; but if ye refuse, and will not hearken unto Me, the sword shall devour you, for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken these things.” (Isa_1:16-20)

Desiring, therefore, that all His beloved should be partakers of repentance, He has, by His almighty will, established [these declarations].

Chap. IX. — Examples of the Saints.

Wherefore, let us yield obedience to His excellent and glorious will; and imploring His mercy and loving-kindness, while we forsake all fruitless labours, and strife, and envy, which leads to death, let us turn and have recourse to His compassions.

Let us stedfastly contemplate those who have perfectly ministered to His excellent glory. Let us take (for instance) Enoch, who, being found righteous in obedience, was translated, and death was never known to happen to him. Noah, being found faithful, preached regeneration to the world through his ministry; and the Lord saved by him the animals which, with one accord, entered into the ark.

Chap. XIII. — An Exhortation to Humility.

Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness, and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings; and let us act according to that which is written (for the Holy Spirit saith, “Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man Story in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness” [Jer9:23-24; 1Co1:31; 2Co10:17]), being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching us meekness and long-suffering.

For thus He spoke: “Be ye merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you; as ye do, so shall it be done unto you; as ye judge, so shall ye be judged; as ye are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you.” (Comp. Mat 6:12-15, Mat 7:2; Luke 6:36-38) By this precept and by these rules let us stablish ourselves, that we walk with all humility in obedience to His holy words. For the holy word saith, “On whom shall I look, but on him that is meek and peaceable, and that trembleth at My words?” (Isa 66:2)

Basically, learn to love God more than sin because he first loved us and as Clement summarized:

Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness, and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings..

That is the mark of the Christian life along with the processes of learning to come to these same conclusions. By the process, one learns to trust in the grace of God to change from the inside out one step at a time until we arrive to our true home.

Repentance is not a feeling of being sorry so one can later repeat the sorry. Repentance is more than a change of mind so one's minds can justify remaining unchanged. Repentance is falling into the hands of God who empowers change by long or short processes often painful, revealing, and liberating.

The more your taste the freedom to follow Jesus Christ, the less you desire the world, religion, and old enslaving lifestyles. You find rest. You find resting in the awareness of God's presence. You change and this process of change is so noted by those around you both the good and the bad during your mortal life's journey to the promised land.
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[SoCalExile]

I've said this before, sometimes I feel like a walking civil war. The new man vs. the old man. The things I don't want to do, I do. I struggle with sin constantly.

Galatians 5:17, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49 say it is.

In truth, Romans 6 is about how Christians should act towards the old man, then he goes into the war of natures in chapter 7, then he tells us how we should act towards the new man in chapter 8. It's a chiasmus and is really one big chapter, as well as taking the reader further down the Romans road.

[SoCalExile]

what do you do with the sin you commit, as the new man succumbs to the old ? How does OSAS work in this situation, especially if Paul is even sorta considered a heretic ?

Q: If Hitler believed in Christ as a kid, would he still be saved after doing all those horrid things?

A: If he was saved, it would be by God's grace, wouldn't it?

[RickD]

SoCalExile wrote:
The fly in the soup of LS and holiness teachers is Romans 7:19, where Paul admits to "practicing evil". They try to get around this by saying that Paul is talking about life before justification, but the fact is the Greek is in present tense, so he's not talking about his past. Also, if you follow the "Romans road" i.e. the logical progression in Romans that parallels a Christian life, justification came in Romans 3-4, chapter 5 onward is about sanctification and discipleship.

by RickD » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:00 am
So, taking Romans 7:19 into account, either:

1) Christians do practice evil, while remaining saved.

2) Paul is a heretic, and isn't saved.

IMO, this is a little too simple. more like:

Christians do practice evil, while remaining saved, if they do repent.
Christians do practice evil, if they do not repent cannot remain saved, but mercy is available if asked for.
Paul is a heretic, and isn't saved.... stop it !

RickD wrote:
I've said this before, sometimes I feel like a walking civil war. The new man vs. the old man. The things I don't want to do, I do. I struggle with sin constantly.

what do you do with the sin you commit, as the new man succumbs to the old ? How does OSAS work in this situation, especially if Paul is even sorta considered a heretic ?

Hey ES,

Addressing your first point, your definition of "repent" isn't found in scripture. You're using the English definition of repent, as in "turn from sin".

Edit: Better yet, show from scripture that a believer has to continually ask for forgiveness, in order to stay saved/not lose eternal life.

And second, saying that a believer cannot remain saved if he doesn't turn from sin, is just not biblical. It would mean that our sin, or lack of turning from sin, is stronger than God's promise to keep the believer. Eternal life is neither gained nor kept, because of anything we do or don't do. Including not confessing sin. Christ's sacrifice paid for all our sin. Once we trust in Christ, we are in him.

As far as what I do with the sin I commit every day? If I know I sin, I ask for forgiveness. Not because I want to make sure I keep my salvation, but because I feel bad for sinning.

And FYI, I don't consider Paul to be a heretic. My point was that if someone says that Christians can't practice evil, then that makes Paul a liar, and a heretic. Which of course, he isn't. There's no contradiction between Paul's message, and the rest of scripture.

[crochet1949]

SCE -- Your comment regarding Hitler -- If Hitler believed in Christ as a kid and the horrible things he did as an adult. A person can 'believe' in Christ and Not be born-again. There's a passage that states that even the demons' believe and tremble. So -- it depends on what a person believes About Jesus Christ. A head knowledge compared to heart acceptance. Now -- if Hitler Did accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior as a child and as an adult did those horrible things. Well -- either way -- he Still answers to God for his actions. Can a believer actually do horrific things? If a person is being convicted by the Holy Spirit and chooses to ignore the Holy Spirit's promptings to Not do something , then, over time -- God Will deal with him. I would not want to Be that person, though.
If he did those things and Then got convicted and turned to God for salvation, then God's grace is absolutely sufficient to forgive and that person spends eternity with God and every other born-again believer in heaven.
If a believer does those things, even As a born-again believer -- well -- it does Not mean that God's grace wasn't really strong enough. People Have been known to get back to God even at a very old age. And, as RickD commented -- our salvation is Not gained or kept through our good / bad lives. We Do expect people to act differently as a result Of salvation, though.
God has His own reasons for allowing the 'stuff' of life to happen.
There will always be an inner struggle for a believer -- because satan doesn't want us to live a good life that people will want to follow. He wants us to mess up so that other's won't want to follow Christ.
Every person who wrote Scripture was guided to do so by the Holy Spirit. No mistakes in it. He / and every believer/ will have that same inner tug of war going on.

[SoCalExile]

SCE -- Your comment regarding Hitler -- If Hitler believed in Christ as a kid and the horrible things he did as an adult. A person can 'believe' in Christ and Not be born-again. There's a passage that states that even the demons' believe and tremble. So -- it depends on what a person believes About Jesus Christ. A head knowledge compared to heart acceptance. Now -- if Hitler Did accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior as a child and as an adult did those horrible things. Well -- either way -- he Still answers to God for his actions. Can a believer actually do horrific things? If a person is being convicted by the Holy Spirit and chooses to ignore the Holy Spirit's promptings to Not do something , then, over time -- God Will deal with him. I would not want to Be that person, though.
If he did those things and Then got convicted and turned to God for salvation, then God's grace is absolutely sufficient to forgive and that person spends eternity with God and every other born-again believer in heaven.
If a believer does those things, even As a born-again believer -- well -- it does Not mean that God's grace wasn't really strong enough. People Have been known to get back to God even at a very old age. And, as RickD commented -- our salvation is Not gained or kept through our good / bad lives. We Do expect people to act differently as a result Of salvation, though.
God has His own reasons for allowing the 'stuff' of life to happen.
There will always be an inner struggle for a believer -- because satan doesn't want us to live a good life that people will want to follow. He wants us to mess up so that other's won't want to follow Christ.
Every person who wrote Scripture was guided to do so by the Holy Spirit. No mistakes in it. He / and every believer/ will have that same inner tug of war going on.

You're in the Lordship Salvation mindset where our works can override God's grace. If that's the case no one is saved.

There is no "head or heart knowledge" dichotomy in the Bible, that's a product of modern psychology. The Bible uses "head" and "heart" interchangeably.

BTW: if you think yo can actually judge someone's salvation by their deeds, then you have a logical problem, as well as a misunderstanding of what grace is.

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB wrote:
There are others though in the church even sometimes they don't fall away and they stay and act their whole life like a Christian.

Ahh...the fruit inspectors...

Exactly HOW is it that one acts like a Christian?

The ones who act like a Christian are the hypocrites. Like say a person who goes to church and is active in the church,but for whatever reason they never go forward to be saved,yet they still keep going anyway acting like a Christian.This is just an example of a way it can happen,there are other ways too.This is not judging anybody's salvation because only God knows who has really been born again.This is just about the importance of a person knowing they have been born again.

[abelcainsbrother]

The fly in the soup of LS and holiness teachers is Romans 7:19, where Paul admits to "practicing evil". They try to get around this by saying that Paul is talking about life before justification, but the fact is the Greek is in present tense, so he's not talking about his past. Also, if you follow the "Romans road" i.e. the logical progression in Romans that parallels a Christian life, justification came in Romans 3-4, chapter 5 onward is about sanctification and discipleship.

So, taking Romans 7:19 into account, either:

1) Christians do practice evil, while remaining saved.

2) Paul is a heretic, and isn't saved.

I've said this before, sometimes I feel like a walking civil war. The new man vs. the old man. The things I don't want to do, I do. I struggle with sin constantly.

I agree I think being a Christian is best described as a never ending wrestling match between the Holy Spirit that is leading us to be more Christ-like and our flesh that wants to do what it wants to do contrary to being Christ-like and sometimes one or the other has the advantage.

[crochet1949]

I am living proof that a person Can have a head knowledge OF and not have it in their heart. I grew up in a wonderful Bible teaching church. I knew a Lot 'in my head' -- but hadn't applied it to My heart. I wasn't really sure Of my salvation -- so our pastor assured us during a sermon that a person can pray to God / quietly /where ever they are and accept Him as their personal Savior. I knew HOW to do it , simply hadn't. So I Did.
It is God's grace that saves us -- because no one deserves it. We All deserve to go to hell when we die.
"By their fruits ye shall know them" -- The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer at the moment of heart belief. And That is what makes the difference in a person's life. And there Should be some evidence in their lives, a new desire to read God's Word -- the desire to share it with others. The desire to be baptized. A new peace that can be seen in their face. New desires to help at the church or Sunday School. Maybe their language / attitudes.
If a person acts/ sounds the same After professing Christ as Savior as they did Before -- then there might just be cause for concern. And that is why a new believer needs to have someone disciple them. Guide them / encourage them. There are too many people who Do walk the aisle / are greeted by someone who reads a few verses, says a prayer and has them sign a card. No one really takes time to really Talk with the person. Are they really understanding? Are they simply emotional and nothing real is happening? And sure a lot of people Are emotional -- but make sure there is Understanding.
Since the term Logical Problem was underlined -- apparently it's meant to be clicked into? Haven't tried that yet.
A person does Not have to go forward to be saved. That is Not part of salvation.
The 'hypocrites' are the one's who act one way at church and goes home and yells at his wife and swears at his kids and kicks the dog. They give Christianity a really Bad name.

[crochet1949]

The click into 'thing' was about assault helicopters in Viet Nam.

[SoCalExile]

The click into 'thing' was about assault helicopters in Viet Nam.

LOL! My bad. Fixed now. Here you go: http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes/?id=28

[SoCalExile]

I am living proof that a person Can have a head knowledge OF and not have it in their heart. I grew up in a wonderful Bible teaching church. I knew a Lot 'in my head' -- but hadn't applied it to My heart. I wasn't really sure Of my salvation -- so our pastor assured us during a sermon that a person can pray to God / quietly /where ever they are and accept Him as their personal Savior. I knew HOW to do it , simply hadn't. So I Did.
It is God's grace that saves us -- because no one deserves it. We All deserve to go to hell when we die.
"By their fruits ye shall know them" -- The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer at the moment of heart belief. And That is what makes the difference in a person's life. And there Should be some evidence in their lives, a new desire to read God's Word -- the desire to share it with others. The desire to be baptized. A new peace that can be seen in their face. New desires to help at the church or Sunday School. Maybe their language / attitudes.
If a person acts/ sounds the same After professing Christ as Savior as they did Before -- then there might just be cause for concern. And that is why a new believer needs to have someone disciple them. Guide them / encourage them. There are too many people who Do walk the aisle / are greeted by someone who reads a few verses, says a prayer and has them sign a card. No one really takes time to really Talk with the person. Are they really understanding? Are they simply emotional and nothing real is happening? And sure a lot of people Are emotional -- but make sure there is Understanding.
Since the term Logical Problem was underlined -- apparently it's meant to be clicked into? Haven't tried that yet.
A person does Not have to go forward to be saved. That is Not part of salvation.
The 'hypocrites' are the one's who act one way at church and goes home and yells at his wife and swears at his kids and kicks the dog. They give Christianity a really Bad name.

Matthew 7:15-16 is about false teachers, not Christians.

And Luke 7:36-50 is about someone who was saved without any words, or baptism.

And how can you judge anyone's salvation by standards they don't have to meet to be saved in the first place?

[EssentialSacrifice]

Hey ES

Addressing your first point, your definition of "repent" isn't found in scripture. You're using the English definition of repent, as in "turn from sin". 

No, actually, I'm not (and you should ask before you assume) http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/ ... m?id=36048 by this point in the game( of sin), there is no "turning" from what you have already done. Repentence, IMO is to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right, which is most certainly confirmed within scripture.
Revelation 2:5 , Luke 13:3, Luke 15:7.
no idea where your English definition of repent, comes from… really, ... Protestant terminology ? IHDK

Edit: Better yet, show from scripture that a believer has to continually ask for forgiveness, in order to stay saved/not lose eternal life.

The Bible speaks of eternal life as something future (Mt 19:29; Mk 9:43-47; Ti 1:2; 3:7; Jude 21) and based upon our fidelity, by God's grace, to his commandments ...
Rom 2:6-7, 1 Tim 6:18-19, Tim 2:12, James 1:12, 2 Tim 4:7, James 1:2-4, Heb 6:4-6

And second, saying that a believer cannot remain saved if he doesn't turn from sin, is just not biblical.

Revelation 2:5, Luke 13:3, cor 4:1-5

Can you show me where in the bible it says you can be saved if you don't turn from sin
(my def. and yours; English whatever)

It would mean that our sin, or lack of turning from sin, is stronger than God's promise to
keep the believer. Eternal life is neither gained nor kept, because of anything we do or don't do.

Including not confessing sin.

Proverbs 28:13 , James 5:16 , 1 John 1:9 , John 20:22-23

I know you firmly believe this, but because there are things we certainly, not only can do, but are expected of us as Christians, Sons and Daughters of God to do, I believe you wrong. Matthew 25:45 and you know there are many more ... https://www.openbible.info/topics/confession_of_sin

Christ's sacrifice paid for all our sin. Once we trust in Christ, we are in him. 

Agree with this He paid, we trust and we are in Him. It is up to us to keep up, hold on and live an entire life if possible in the service of Jesus and His ways, the examples He left us with His message of brotherly love and complete dedication to your love of the Father. IMO, that's how we are in Him and remain strong in Him with daily perseverance to His Word.

As far as what I do with the sin I commit every day? If I know I sin, I ask for forgiveness. Not because I want to make sure I keep my salvation, but because I feel bad for sinning. 

IMO, I keep my salvation because I do feel bad for sinning and repent. They are similar in construct, … no ?

Catholic Act of Contrition:
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended you, and I detest all my sins, because of Your just punishments, but most of all because they offend You, my God, who are all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Your grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin.

See … you got a little Catholic in you ! Watch yourself when filling the Mustang … static discharge from the similarities !!

And FYI, I don't consider Paul to be a heretic. My point was that if someone says that Christians can't practice evil, then that makes Paul a liar, and a heretic. Which of course, he isn't. There's no contradiction between Paul's message, and the rest of scripture

Good lord honk and Henry … how did you miss my big smile and wink … no kidding, you really don't think Paul is a heretic, there's no contradiction between Paul's message, and the rest of scripture ? If it was the Paul sorta heretic comment it was meant as tongue in cheek (it would be nice to have a sarcasm smilie … you'd think the saint of sarcasm could help us out here … )

oh yeah, wait ... never mind, we can't get there from here … there's no communication with the saints either? … (little NE reference few besides you will appreciate )

[crochet1949]

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all our unrighteousness."

Occasionally IMO doesn't agree with God's Word.