Catholicism Questions

[RickD]

And usually when something doesn't seem right, it isn't. At least when it comes to something pretty basic in theology.

That just doesn't seem right.

I placeth a Benny Hinn curse on thee, for thouest shall not mocketh me!

[Jac3510]

And usually when something doesn't seem right, it isn't. At least when it comes to something pretty basic in theology.

That just doesn't seem right.

I placeth a Benny Hinn curse on thee, for thouest shall not mocketh me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFEzW1Z6TRM

[RickD]

Jac,

I gave one to B. W. earlier. Here's one for you:
http://youtu.be/BbGMSRqejOE

[Jac3510]

Jac,

I gave one to B. W. earlier. Here's one for you:
http://youtu.be/BbGMSRqejOE

OH YEAH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3SgOleq3Xw

[Jac3510]

Jac,

I gave one to B. W. earlier. Here's one for you:
http://youtu.be/BbGMSRqejOE

OH YEAH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3SgOleq3Xw

[Jac3510]

As my three year old said this morning,

"I'M THE WINNER!!!!"

Seriously, we have no idea why she said that. Just burst in yelling that, and proceeded to inform Gretchen and me that her prize was a poptart.

[Storyteller]

I'm lost now.

[RickD]

I'm lost now.

Then you ARE a true Catholic.

[Jac3510]

I'm lost now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFtasgYpcmE

[IceMobster]

You have somehow got to the heart of it jac. I have no problem with Mary being the Mother of God. She is. Christ is God. Mary is His mother.

I actually have no problem with the Immaculate Conception either.

But...

If I choose to be a Catholic, I need to believe, and know the church is who she says she is, and I need to find out who she says she is

Personally, right now, Im listening to the HS, exploring, letting Christ lead me.

Where better to start than with the Catholic Church documents of the 2nd Vatican council?
To be a Catholic, you have to agree with all of the dogmas, decrees and declarations. (which is why I don't like it and don't see myself as one in the future)
2nd Vatican council is what "reborned" the Church. It stopped being an inward institution proclaiming all other faiths as heretical ones and started the ecumenical and inter religious dialog.

Oh, well, the concept of having some authority and hierarchy is cool, but, having an intercessor (confession...) between God and individual seriously makes no sense to me. (just my opinion )

So, yeah, read up on what the Catholic Church teaches. Use original Catholic sites and Church documents. Oh, btw, are you attending mass in some Catholic church?

If you got any questions, do ask.

I'm lost now.

Then you ARE a true Catholic.

That was bloody ruthless....

I like it.

[Philip]

OK, let's cut through some crap and all of the semantics, and whatever some supposed heretic believed or didn't. Let's focus on what Catholics teach about Mary that is unScriptural.

First place, I have no problem with technically referring to Mary as the "Mother of God" - AS LONG AS - we are not implying there is some deification or aspect of her that claims she was not a mere mortal and a sinner, but one blessed of God to birth God (Jesus) into the world. Jesus came into the world with a human mother - but she did not ORIGINATE Him. Jesus had NO Spiritual birth, as He is an ETERNAL Being (God!), but He did have a HUMAN birth - requiring a human mother. And Jesus' real Father (of Whom He is part of the Godhead with) was also MARY'S Father, and Jesus is ONE with the Father. Did Jesus die? Of course, His BODY died. What's the big deal? We know His spirit and the essence of ALL He has ALWAYS been did not die, nor could it. Period!

Back to Mary: She is no "Co-Redeemtrix!" Prayers to the Virgin - WHY???!!!! Where in Scripture or the New Testament is ANYONE told to pray to ANY saint, dead or alive? Now, we do ask others to pray for us. But there is no more power in Mary than of any other person's prayers for us. I would imagine my own mother, in Heaven, may well pray for me. But I don't PRAY to my mother. And Mary has no special power or persuasion over God that my own mother or any other saint, dead or alive, wouldn't have. Was Mary so venerated in Scripture? Absolutely not! She was a sinner. She plays NO role in our Salvation, as that would mean that something other than God is responsible for it. She clearly was not a virgin, as she had other sons and daughters.

OK, so, in John 19, Jesus is near death, and He hands is mother over to the "Disciple Whom He Loved." This is Jesus' last reference to His mother. Where, WHERE is ANY reference to all of the Catholic nonsense about Mary, beseeching Her, co-Redeemtrix - any of that? Who petitions for us? The Holy Spirit! "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." Romans 8:26).

Immaculately conceived - please! Guess what, IT'S CATHOLIC MADE-UP NONSENSE! The ENTIRE focus of prayer, devotion, promise, absolutely everything in the New Testament and its focus is ALL about JESUS, JESUS, JESUS!!! Mary is almost absent from mention, extreme reverence, or ANY special connotations. YES, she is blessed amongst women. Of course. But the rest is the Catholic Church building a dependency and focus upon a mortal woman, and not upon God/Jesus. Focusing or depending upon Mary as opposed to Christ is just WRONG. Focusing on one's need for a priest to intercede for someone - all of this stuff - bunk! When Jesus died, that curtain in the Holy of Holies was torn in half; the wall between God and man was destroyed FOREVER. No one needs another human being to do what they cannot also do: " Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:16)

OK, post Jesus' ascent into Heaven, the disciples have gathered in Jerusalem, and Mary is with them - ALONG WITH Jesus' BROTHERS (Acts 1). And Mary is mentioned almost as an afterthought - she's certainly not the focus. Acts 1:14: ""All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers" - oops, another reference to the post virginity of Mary.

The Catholic Church appeals, not to the New Testament which contradicts it, but to the "Protoevangelium of James," a work written nearly 50 years into the 2nd Century - over a 100 years after the events. Yeah, that's reliable! So, is a work that is not Scripture, that CONTRADICTS Scripture, that is 100 years past the events of Mary's life - is this to be the work we should consider to define Mary's asserted perpetual virginity? Read more about Mary's supposed Immaculate Conception here: http://www.gotquestions.org/immaculate-conception.html And the CC scam continues with Mary's supposed rapture into Heaven - which is WHERE in the New Testament accounts? Are we to believe that this miraculous occurrence of Jesus' mother is totally absent in Scripture???!!!

How mysterious that the New Testament that tells us everything we know about Mary, yet it mentions not one bit of these Catholic teachings, and the CC justifications for them are so strained and thinly connected as to be totally lacking in credibility or rational interpretation.

You decide about Mary: https://www.jashow.org/articles/world-r ... ly-divine/

Just like Peter and all this pope nonsense - and all the contradictory stuff they have said - contradicting not only Scripture, but also each other, time and again (WHICH pope are we to believe?) - the Maryfication of the Catholic Church is just more man-made religious teaching - and certainly not Scriptural. One has to realize that both the papacy and Mary are very central teachings of Catholicism. And yet, neither teaching is specifically taught in the New Testament for either to be credible, and the CC justifications for them are unbelievably obscured with creative interpretations that are in no way obvious from Scripture. And again, these are teachings central to CC dogma. If they are CENTRAL and key teachings, why aren't they VERY clearly taught and redundantly discussed in Scripture???!!!

[abelcainsbrother]

Mary Did You Know? My favorite version of this song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gbXwVPVyGA

[RickD]

Philip wrote:

First place, I have no problem with technically referring to Mary as the "Mother of God" -

Then I think you're essentially agreeing with Jac.

Is Theotokos biblical irrespective of what Catholicism did to the doctrine. I think both you and Jac say yes.

And that's what I'm not convinced about.

Like I told Jac, it may just be because I can't separate the doctrine from the other Marian doctrines/teachings in Catholicism.

[PaulSacramento]

I can't believe you said this.

I didn't say anything about not knowing qualifiers exist. I just said you have to understand them. People who don't understand these qualifiers shouldn't be making claims that something is or isn't true. And if you do understand the qualifiers, you don't need to talk about them. In short, Paul, the problem isn't with the Catholics. It's with us. If we're going to say what THEY teach is not true (if we're going to say that Mary isn't the Mother of God) then it is up to US to use their argument in the way they intend it. Anything less is intellectual dishonesty on our part, and evangelicals have been very dishonest on this issue for a very long time.

First off, remember that I am a Catholic so I know what WE mean when we say things.
Second, my point about qualifiers is that we must say them if people are to know and understand them.
When a Catholic says "Mother of God" they know they mean Mother of the Son of God BUT anyone else MAY understand it as Mother of the Divine creator ( and yes some people do understand it as such).
Now, I grant that more often than not people that misunderstand the doctrines are doing so because they want to, but I have no problem in admitting that many catholic doctrines are, well, misunderstandable.

The view that Mary was a perpetual virgin, for example, doesn't make much sense if you take what the NT writers write.
It's church tradition and not scriptural.

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
First off, remember that I am a Catholic so I know what WE mean when we say things.

Wait. What?

Catholic? And to think I voted for you to become a moderator!

Talk about not knowing qualifiers beforehand!