How God can create through evolution:

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by RickD »

neo-x wrote:
Audie wrote:
neo-x wrote:To the original question in the title, God doesn't need to create if he places the laws of nature as they are, the rest will simply follow.

But I don't think it can be squared completely with the Genesis story. Somethings would clash. The text simply doesn't allow any kind of alternative except what is written.

I think God chose Adam and eve specifically out of the rest, as to why or how I have no clue. But again, the biblical account is quite adamant that the first human was Adam. Then how do you define human is what really sets the argument.

In some book. there is a definition of sorts. It speaks of "opening an ornate Japanese box, to find a mummified hand holding the hilt of a samurai sword, broken off close. So tiny and shriveled, it looked like a monkey's paw. But no, if it is holding a sword, it is human."
Thus my position on the story.
It's a miracle!!!

Somebody finally understands what the hell Audie is talking about!!! :fainting:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by hughfarey »

abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5020
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by Audie »

RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:
Audie wrote:
neo-x wrote:To the original question in the title, God doesn't need to create if he places the laws of nature as they are, the rest will simply follow.

But I don't think it can be squared completely with the Genesis story. Somethings would clash. The text simply doesn't allow any kind of alternative except what is written.

I think God chose Adam and eve specifically out of the rest, as to why or how I have no clue. But again, the biblical account is quite adamant that the first human was Adam. Then how do you define human is what really sets the argument.

In some book. there is a definition of sorts. It speaks of "opening an ornate Japanese box, to find a mummified hand holding the hilt of a samurai sword, broken off close. So tiny and shriveled, it looked like a monkey's paw. But no, if it is holding a sword, it is human."
Thus my position on the story.
It's a miracle!!!

Somebody finally understands what the hell Audie is talking about!!! :fainting:
Keep working on your reading skills, you may catch up with the neotenic one.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by RickD »

Audie wrote:
RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:
Audie wrote:
neo-x wrote:To the original question in the title, God doesn't need to create if he places the laws of nature as they are, the rest will simply follow.

But I don't think it can be squared completely with the Genesis story. Somethings would clash. The text simply doesn't allow any kind of alternative except what is written.

I think God chose Adam and eve specifically out of the rest, as to why or how I have no clue. But again, the biblical account is quite adamant that the first human was Adam. Then how do you define human is what really sets the argument.

In some book. there is a definition of sorts. It speaks of "opening an ornate Japanese box, to find a mummified hand holding the hilt of a samurai sword, broken off close. So tiny and shriveled, it looked like a monkey's paw. But no, if it is holding a sword, it is human."
Thus my position on the story.
It's a miracle!!!

Somebody finally understands what the hell Audie is talking about!!! :fainting:
Keep working on your reading skills, you may catch up with the neotenic one.
I just need my reading skills to catch up to my grammar police skills.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Audie
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3502
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:41 am
Christian: No
Sex: Female
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Location: USA

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by Audie »

RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote:
Audie wrote:

In some book. there is a definition of sorts. It speaks of "opening an ornate Japanese box, to find a mummified hand holding the hilt of a samurai sword, broken off close. So tiny and shriveled, it looked like a monkey's paw. But no, if it is holding a sword, it is human."
Thus my position on the story.
It's a miracle!!!

Somebody finally understands what the hell Audie is talking about!!! :fainting:
Keep working on your reading skills, you may catch up with the neotenic one.
I just need my reading skills to catch up to my grammar police skills.
Comprehension. That's two in a row.

You might want to teach your grammar police to be
on the lookout for subjunctive atropy.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by RickD »

Audie wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
RickD wrote:
neo-x wrote: Thus my position on the story.
It's a miracle!!!

Somebody finally understands what the hell Audie is talking about!!! :fainting:
Keep working on your reading skills, you may catch up with the neotenic one.
I just need my reading skills to catch up to my grammar police skills.
Comprehension. That's two in a row.

You might want to teach your grammar police to be
on the lookout for subjunctive atropy.
Sorry, you lost me again.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by hughfarey »

Time for a reality check?
neo-x wrote:To the original question in the title, God doesn't need to create if he places the laws of nature as they are, the rest will simply follow.
This is a rather bleak view of God, I think, theologically just possible, but missing Kureiou's point about those laws having to be maintained.
But I don't think it can be squared completely with the Genesis story. Somethings would clash. The text simply doesn't allow any kind of alternative except what is written.
This rather depends what you mean by 'square' and 'allow'. Old Earth Evolutionists come up with ever more entertaining distortions to make evolution 'square' with a literal reading of Genesis. Theistic Evolutionists think the biblical text is not required to 'allow' for evolution, whatever it says.
I think God chose Adam and eve specifically out of the rest, as to why or how I have no clue. But again, the biblical account is quite adamant that the first human was Adam. Then how do you define human is what really sets the argument.
Quite, dividing Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 chronologically is unsound theology, making the original creation of man, who were "blessed", given "dominion" over the rest of creation, a triviality.
abelcainsbrother
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5020
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Gap Theory

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by abelcainsbrother »

Before we go tampering with God's word or doubting parts of it,or claiming this part was just poetry,etc We need to know life evolves first and I'm not convinced we know life evolves seeing that no scientist has ever been able to demonstrate life evolves. The only thing scientists have demonstrated is that there is variation in reproduction or that life can adapt and one must assume based on this that life evolves by faith. So that if we must believe life evolves by faith?Then we should not put evolution on so high of a pedestal to where we doubt parts of God's word.

When believing things by faith,God's word comes first. I cannot help it that it is difficult for scientists to demonstrate life evolves before we find ways to doubt parts of God's word,they must. When have you ever seen any scientist demonstrate life evolves? Why is this? Have you ever wondered why you've never seen any evidence in science that demonstrates life evolves? No,it is just preached by scientists or Professor and you have decided to just believe them.

It really sticks out to me that we can go back years and watch even young earth creationists debate evolutionists and yet it comes down to who we believe more than evidence from either side. This always stuck out to me.I noticed that no evolutionist has ever provided evidence that demonstrates life evolves, and if they had? They would have won,but they never have.It just always came down to who we believe.It was a tie at best.All we ever really see is both sides trying to polk holes in each others belief without real evidence being presented from either side.If there was a winner? It was usually based on which one polked more holes in the other one's position and not because of real evidence.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by hughfarey »

A reasonable try, abelcainsbrother, but, in my opinion, no cigar.
abelcainsbrother wrote:Before we go tampering with God's word or doubting parts of it,or claiming this part was just poetry,etc.
Tampering with God's word? That's a loaded phrase. We need to know what God's word is, and in my opinion it really is a collection of different kinds of literature, so it is not tampering with it to understand it in different ways. Indeed, I consider the discussion about the separate creation of people twice, and the sexual abilities of angels, much worse 'tampering' than any scientific interpretation of God's word.
We need to know life evolves first and I'm not convinced we know life evolves seeing that no scientist has ever been able to demonstrate life evolves.
We don't 'know' scientific things; we come up with the best interpretation of the evidence. There has not been enough time to demonstrate speciation to the satisfaction of creationists yet, but given a couple of hundred years I've no doubt there will be demonstration aplenty.
The only thing scientists have demonstrated is that there is variation in reproduction or that life can adapt and one must assume based on this that life evolves by faith.
Yes, although faith is a loaded word. We can see life adapting in small ways, and assume by extrapolation that major speciation will eventually be demonstrated.
So that if we must believe life evolves by faith?Then we should not put evolution on so high of a pedestal to where we doubt parts of God's word.
Good point, but that rather assumes that evolution contradicts God's word. The whole point of this thread is that to evolutionists, evolution affirms and demonstrates God's word, and that a literal reading of the bible distorts and corrupts it.
When believing things by faith,God's word comes first.
Quite so. But a literal reading of the bible is not God's word.
I cannot help it that it is difficult for scientists to demonstrate life evolves before we find ways to doubt parts of God's word, they must.
No, the evidence God has already placed on the earth, coupled to the ability to reason God has placed in our minds, is quite sufficient.
When have you ever seen any scientist demonstrate life evolves? Why is this? Have you ever wondered why you've never seen any evidence in science that demonstrates life evolves?
No. I understand exactly why.
No,it is just preached by scientists or Professor and you have decided to just believe them.
Not at all. I have come to my own conclusions based on the evidence.
It really sticks out to me that we can go back years and watch even young earth creationists debate evolutionists and yet it comes down to who we believe more than evidence from either side.
Correct. Deriving the best explanation one can from the evidence available is the essence of human reason.
This always stuck out to me.I noticed that no evolutionist has ever provided evidence that demonstrates life evolves, and if they had?
Incorrect. Evidence for evolution abounds in countless research papers across different disciplines. From the publication of 'On the Origin of Species' onwards, there has been an ever increasing mountain of evidence confirming evolution, and nothing to suggest it is an incorrect explanation.
They would have won,but they never have.
It's not a battle, but, if the current scientific and theological understanding of the world from an evolutionary view-point is anything to go by, evolution is most obviously the dominant accepted paradigm.
It just always came down to who we believe.It was a tie at best.
I think that's wishful thinking on the part of tiny minority
All we ever really see is both sides trying to polk holes in each others belief without real evidence being presented from either side.
Not at all. Evolutionists present mountains of evidence, which robustly withstands attempts to poke holes it. The problem with creationists is that that have never presented any evidence at all. Evolutionists have nothing to poke holes in!
If there was a winner? It was usually based on which one polked more holes in the other one's position and not because of real evidence.
No. It was because one presented evidence and a rational conclusion to be drawn from it, and the other didn't.
crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1467
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by crochet1949 »

The phrase "human reasoning' -- How have humans developed that. Where did we get the ability For Reasoning.
User avatar
Kurieuo
Honored Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:25 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Progressive Creationist
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by Kurieuo »

hughfarey wrote:Time for a reality check?
neo-x wrote:To the original question in the title, God doesn't need to create if he places the laws of nature as they are, the rest will simply follow.
This is a rather bleak view of God, I think, theologically just possible, but missing Kureiou's point about those laws having to be maintained.
Really, something we agree on? ;) I had to go digging back, but here is what I said neo-x.

From my previous exchanges with neo-x however, he prefers to take the minimum approach possible to the point that not even God is required to "guide" things. This can never be attacked or had the rug pulled from out from underneath it. Similarly, so impersonal and even bleak as you say that a person believes nothing but the bar barest existence of God must be maintained with science rather than the other way around. The bleakness that you see in neo-x's thinking, I think comes from philosophical restraints placed upon us in an era of Materialism (which I see approaching an end).

I think it is an ever so important point to realise that things aren't just "created" but must be upheld such that the realities we experience are perpetually created. It is like, a building that is set upon it's foundation, struts and so on. Remove the building's foundation, make those struts vanish, and it'll all collapse and fall down. Similarly, just because "God created" doesn't mean God can walk away. Given God create, God becomes the foundation that keeps every single particle existing and glue that binds everything together.

On the other hand, we have many who don't like to consider the foundational nature of reality. They don't like asking questions about what lays beneath the physical realities that we experience. Rather, for such, ourselves and the world we experience just exist and we shouldn't be startled or surprised that they do exist and function all by themselves running on absolutely nothing.

This is similar to the "big bang" problem if you will, that is, things just existing as they are and working as they do. The world came into existence from nothing and keeps running do based upon nothing, and we shouldn't even entertain the nothing that something keeps everything in existence, stable and running -- for the lens with which we've all been taught to view the world through won't let us do that! As Tolkien stated, to entertain there is more behind the walls would be an act of treason.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
hughfarey
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 752
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:58 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by hughfarey »

crochet1949 wrote:The phrase "human reasoning' -- How have humans developed that. Where did we get the ability For Reasoning.
We acquired it as we evolved, as an adaptation to living in a variety of different environments for which 'hard wired' responses were inappropriate. Various opportunistic animals show quite a high propensity for reason - rats and jackdaws come to mind - for similar reasons.
crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1467
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by crochet1949 »

I still have a problem with / God can create through evolution. The human ability for Reasoning -- that being compared to rats -- the same rats that human beings design rat traps to catch because they are a horrible nuisance -- the rats get trapped -- shouldn't they be using Their reasoning ability to Avoid the traps?

People's reasoning ability allows Us to design and produce homes/ luxury cars / homes / yachts, etc. As Well As being able to survive very nicely in the great outdoors. Animals simply Do Not have that ability -- they Do make their homes and provide for their young out of what they find in nature -- Or by what People choose to provide them with.
Just suggesting........
bippy123
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1941
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age

Re: How God can create through evolution:

Post by bippy123 »

crochet1949 wrote:I still have a problem with / God can create through evolution. The human ability for Reasoning -- that being compared to rats -- the same rats that human beings design rat traps to catch because they are a horrible nuisance -- the rats get trapped -- shouldn't they be using Their reasoning ability to Avoid the traps?

People's reasoning ability allows Us to design and produce homes/ luxury cars / homes / yachts, etc. As Well As being able to survive very nicely in the great outdoors. Animals simply Do Not have that ability -- they Do make their homes and provide for their young out of what they find in nature -- Or by what People choose to provide them with.
Just suggesting........
My problem with evolution is macroevolution and the specified complex info within Dna.
If we are to use inductive reasoning as we have always done in science the only time this type of info had arisen is when a mind had behind it .

As I said macroevolution has not been proven to the point that science should elevate it to a theory .
But I'm open to returning to it if these hurdles can be jumped
Post Reply