Catholicism Questions

[RickD]

Sometimes Biblical truth , when it obviously contradicts other belief systems, isn't appreciated. But when there is eternal life at stake -- it's important To take a Stand for it -- the Truth.

And, yes, I Did see your comment "according to the Catholic Church".

Which one of us here isn't trying to take a stand for truth?

I'd like to think that we all are.

That's why these conversations happen. We all give our interpretations, and then discuss it. Nobody has a monopoly on the truth of scripture.

[PaulSacramento]

ABout Baptism being necessary for salvation.
The RCC is clear on that:

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

The RCC cites John 3:5:

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Of course, in that very chapter Jesus says explicitly:

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

So...

[Byblos]

Ok. But just for the record, you brought up assurance, not me.

Of course I did, repeatedly. because that's where the conversation will lead, and it did.

I was trying to avoid it because when you and I talk about it, I know it ends the conversation.

No, authority is what ends the conversation.

If I say, "the body of Christ is all believers who trust Christ", then would you agree?

Yes. Be careful though, I just might consider you catholic then (though maybe a little schismatic).

So, if you'll humor me, according to the Catholic Church, what must one do to be saved?

Earlier crochet mentioned the thief on the cross so I will take that as the simplest case (so we don't end up in all kinds of rabbit trails). Trust Christ and you are saved. Pretty simple. A life-long avowed atheist who trusts Christ on her deathbed is saved (noting once again that the CC does not make definitive pronouncements on who is saved and who isn't).

Beyond that and as a general rule (and that's where the rabbit trails begin), one who consciously and willfully rejects Christ is not saved.

[RickD]

Paul,

On that thought, Catholicism teaches that baptism is a work, in the context that God is doing the work of baptism. So, that makes baptism part of faith, not a work of man.(correct me if I'm mistaken)

How they get around the fact that man is doing the baptism in water, in order to say that it's not a work in that sense, I'm not sure. Maybe the baptizer is a representative of Christ?

Kinda like how the magesterium can pronounce things as ex cathedra ?

[Byblos]

Paul,

On that thought, Catholicism teaches that baptism is a work, in the context that God is doing the work of baptism. So, that makes baptism part of faith, not a work of man.(correct me if I'm mistaken)

How they get around the fact that man is doing the baptism in water, in order to say that it's not a work in that sense, I'm not sure. Maybe the baptizer is a representative of Christ?

Kinda like how the magesterium can pronounce things as ex cathedra ?

The 'baptizer' has no role in it whatsoever, no priest is even needed. An atheist can perform a baptism. The one who is doing the baptizing is God.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul,

On that thought, Catholicism teaches that baptism is a work, in the context that God is doing the work of baptism. So, that makes baptism part of faith, not a work of man.(correct me if I'm mistaken)

How they get around the fact that man is doing the baptism in water, in order to say that it's not a work in that sense, I'm not sure. Maybe the baptizer is a representative of Christ?

Kinda like how the magesterium can pronounce things as ex cathedra ?

Anyone can Baptize since it is not the Baptizer BUT the Baptizee that is the key element.
A Baptism is a statement between believer and God, an act that welcomes the believer into the "congregation" of Christ.
Much like circumcision welcomed one into the jewish family of Israel.

Now, Christ's statement that one can NOT enter the kingdom of God unless born of water and spirit is taken by the RCC as meaning that baptism ( a rite of water and spirit) is necessary for salvation.
Of course Jesus does NOT say Baptism ( though He knew the word of course) nor is there any record of Jesus HIMSELF baptising anyone ( though His disciples did).

I think that if you believe that Baptism is needed for salvation that you will interpret that verse as saying that while, if you do NOT believe that baptism is needed for salvation, you will see Jesus' comment as meaning something else.

A case of reading theology INTO scripture, something we all are guilty of.

[Philip]

Crochet: Philip -- very well put. But I would like to comment on sprinkle vs immersion -- an important subject -- baptism by immersion is practiced in the New Testament -- it is to show Publically the personal decision that a person has already made in their heart regarding their accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. No saving value in it. Sprinkling is done to infants with no ability to make that decision.

Of COURSE, the New Testament teaches immersion. But what I mean, and my FOCUS, is that is not an essential related to salvation - which is the far more important issue. God does not determine faith in Christ based upon the amount of water one demonstrates that faith with. Of course, I'd prefer going off the high dive, LOL. But you mentioned the saved thief - unless it rained... But, you are right, infants don't understand their sin, don't understand or know the Gospel, can't choose to have faith in what they do not yet know, nor have the ability to respond to. So baptizing an infant - whether with a sprinkle or by being tossed in a pool - will not save that child. No one can do for another human being what he must only do himself: Hear, understand and believe the Gospel message, and have faith in Christ. Period!

[PaulSacramento]

unless of course is baptism was more like circumcision.

[EssentialSacrifice]

philip:
infants don't understand their sin, don't understand or know the Gospel, can't choose to have faith in what they do not yet know, nor have the ability to respond to. So baptizing an infant - whether with a sprinkle or by being tossed in a pool - will not save that child.

so two questions here ...
#1 who does the baptizing in your / any baptismal need ... scenario ?

No one can do for another human being what he must only do himself

#2 where do the babies who never get to Hear, understand and believe the Gospel message, and have faith in Christ. Period! end up after death?

[Byblos]

Just to note that now we're shifting away from strictly Catholic things (I'm not even sure there are such things anyway) and into areas even non-Catholics disagree on, infant baptism, perseverance of the saints (Calvinism), baptism by immersion (baptists), lordship salvation (so many), and so on.

[Philip]

philip: ... infants don't understand their sin, don't understand or know the Gospel, can't choose to have faith in what they do not yet know, nor have the ability to respond to. So baptizing an infant - whether with a sprinkle or by being tossed in a pool - will not save that child.

Essential: so two questions here ...
#1 who does the baptizing in your / any baptismal need ... scenario ?

It is true that one is baptized into the Spirit by GOD. But other than the one doing the Baptism be a Christian, it matters not who physically facilitates the immersion or sprinkling. I baptized my oldest son. My youngest was baptized by the pastor. But both of these were only outward signs of what was in their understandings and heart: That Jesus is their Savior whom they have faith in and desire to serve. The ceremony was only an outward sign of what was within their understandings and hearts, not as a portal to, salvation.

Philip: No one can do for another human being what he must only do himself

Essential: #2 where do the babies who never get to Hear, understand and believe the Gospel message, and have faith in Christ. Period! end up after death?

My belief, and while not explicit, is there is good Scriptural evidence to suggest that children before an understanding of the Gospel, of their sin, of God's directive to believe/have faith in Jesus, cannot do these things. And so God doesn't demand of children (or the severely mentally handicapped, etc.) that which they cannot intellectually understand and thus cannot do. And so, I believe, if they die as children without such understandings, that they go to be with the Lord - and they may still in fact have to acknowledge and accept Jesus when made aware, or maybe they are merely saved by the Lord. Again, ADULTS whom were baptized as children, but yet who still lack faith in Christ, are just as dead in their sins as any other unbeliever. If mere BAPTISM saved, one could believe anything or nothing, and they would eternally be just fine. But that is not what Scripture teaches.

[crochet1949]

Philip -- I don't think there was a mention of rain in that day's forecast. Besides That would have been moderate to heavy sprinkling -- not being immersed bodily.
I've known of people being baptized in a bath tub -- laying down and being immersed in the water.
So -- Baptism by immersion but not part of salvation. And, people who are in car wrecks, plane crashes, etc. they can accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior and never have a chance for baptism.
( It has been said that repetition is a good teaching tool)


The comment was made that if a person Wants to be baptized but Can't that That 'desire' will be enough to satisfy God. Well -- good desires won't get a person their salvation.

[Byblos]

The comment was made that if a person Wants to be baptized but Can't that That 'desire' will be enough to satisfy God. Well -- good desires won't get a person their salvation.

Well there you go Rick.

[EssentialSacrifice]

philip:
My belief, and while not explicit, is there is good Scriptural evidence to suggest that children before an understanding of the Gospel, of their sin, of God's directive to believe/have faith in Jesus, cannot do these things. And so God doesn't demand of children (or the severely mentally handicapped, etc.) that which they cannot intellectually understand and thus cannot do. And so, I believe, if they die as children without such understandings, that they go to be with the Lord - and they may still in fact have to acknowledge and accept Jesus when made aware, or maybe they are merely saved by the Lord. Again, ADULTS whom were baptized as children, but yet who still lack faith in Christ, are just as dead in their sins as any other unbeliever. If mere BAPTISM saved, one could believe anything or nothing, and they would eternally be just fine. But that is not what Scripture teaches.

https://bible.org/seriespage/10-where-d ... death-baby

what do ya think? you just knew God had to provide

baptism by is very similar in CC but we don't even require Christianity in the baptizer.

[crochet1949]

John 3:5 "being born of the water and of the Spirit......' Born of Water is being born physically / referring to the bag of water that a baby is delivered From. And Then a person can be born Spiritually in order to enter the kingdom of God.

And it's referred to by some as the 'age of accountability'. When ever the child / person can understand their need. Which is why it's important for parents to start teaching their children at an early age. There are those who feel that kids need to be older to accept Christ. But that depends on the child. Reading a Child's Bible story book is good -- let the child ask questions as they develop interest. Don't actively encourage a child into a decision for salvation Because children want to please their parents or other adults. If it will make you happy, they'll Do it -- even without understanding What they are doing.