Questions for Theistic Evolutionists

[Audie]

Audie -- you certainly don't like people contradicting you. As for the existence of miracles -- they Do happen. In fact, people have acknowledged that God saved them from certain death -- That has happened after accidents on the news-- after storms -- or their tumor disappeared -- That happened to a man in our church. He'd had a brain tumor -- it was beginning to take it's toll on him. They prayed over him - laid hands on him. Shortly after that was the next appt. and they could Not find a trace of that tumor. And they thanked God for His healing. And some times it's used fasciciously -- "That sure was a miracle -- that I passed the test ".
In fact --one of my brother-in-laws was on the operating table and he started to bleed-out. The surgeons were doing all they Could and said after the fact that they 'watched as God worked His miracle' -- they said that there was No reason he should have survived that surgery. Now --there Are people who would say that the surgeon was incompetent and try to get him for malpractice Rather than be thankful for God's working His miracle. I chose to include that last sentence because there are possibly those who Would say that themselves. So I'm saving 'them' the time / trouble.
Now, if someone doesn't really believe in God -- they won't be accepting the existence of the supernatural, either.

I've faults enough, no need for you to invent any.

Every religion and tribal healer claims miracles, yet nobody
sees legs grow back.

As Twain put it, "If it is a miracle, any sort of evidence will answer
but if it is a Fact, proof isnecessary."

[Kurieuo]

You think you've presented tangible parameters for something, but I don't know what exactly.

What about generally longer lives and happier, better health, etc. Any studies you got there?

[bippy123]

Audie -- you certainly don't like people contradicting you. As for the existence of miracles -- they Do happen. In fact, people have acknowledged that God saved them from certain death -- That has happened after accidents on the news-- after storms -- or their tumor disappeared -- That happened to a man in our church. He'd had a brain tumor -- it was beginning to take it's toll on him. They prayed over him - laid hands on him. Shortly after that was the next appt. and they could Not find a trace of that tumor. And they thanked God for His healing. And some times it's used fasciciously -- "That sure was a miracle -- that I passed the test ".
In fact --one of my brother-in-laws was on the operating table and he started to bleed-out. The surgeons were doing all they Could and said after the fact that they 'watched as God worked His miracle' -- they said that there was No reason he should have survived that surgery. Now --there Are people who would say that the surgeon was incompetent and try to get him for malpractice Rather than be thankful for God's working His miracle. I chose to include that last sentence because there are possibly those who Would say that themselves. So I'm saving 'them' the time / trouble.
Now, if someone doesn't really believe in God -- they won't be accepting the existence of the supernatural, either.

I've faults enough, no need for you to invent any.

Every religion and tribal healer claims miracles, yet nobody
sees legs grow back.

As Twain put it, "If it is a miracle, any sort of evidence will answer
but if it is a Fact, proof isnecessary."

Actually Audi that isn't entirely correct
Ever heard of the miracle of calandra ?
This miracle of a mans limb growing back in the 1700's was pretty well documented by the doctor that first examined him .
https://churchpop.com/2016/01/12/god-cu ... f-calanda/

This miracle has given many an atheist headaches

[crochet1949]

Audie -- so a leg growing back constitutes a true miracle? Then you live a sheltered life. As I was sharing just a moment ago with you some of the real miracles that Have happened.

[hughfarey]

"This miracle has given many an atheist headaches." I wonder if that's true. Sadly I don't have the inclination to read the pithily entitled "Copia literal y auténtica del proceso, y sentencia de calificación sobre milagro obrado por la intercesión de nuestra Señora del Pilar en la villa de Calanda" but I'm not sure I, who am not an atheist, would find a natural explanation for the 'miracle' very difficult to find. The fact that the miraculously restored leg did not, in fact, grow back, but was replaced exactly as it was before the accident, complete with scars and bruises from previous accidents, is quaintly incredible, I think. What's more, it wasn't even a new, replica leg, but the original, as the hole in which the amputated leg was buried was excavated and found empty. Truly God works in mysterious ways...

[abelcainsbrother]

Ain't That A Miracle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szfhJsXTml0

[Audie]

Audie -- so a leg growing back constitutes a true miracle? Then you live a sheltered life. As I was sharing just a moment ago with you some of the real miracles that Have happened.

I would say that having a leg grow back-make it instantaneous, for extra
effect- would be a true miracle. You disagree?

As for the sheltered life bit, lets not stoop to personal jabs, ok? You leave yourself wide open, lets not go there.

You listed some things you consider to have been miracles. I noted that
those are claimed all over the world, thru time, and from probably every religion and tribal healer ever. We get the miracle of the Virgin on a biscuit, we get https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun.

None can actually be demonstrated to be real. If you believe in them, this should be no obstacle; "God", after all, does not provide proof of existence, does "He"? Miracles like a leg regrowing in the Mayo clinic with videos going is not going to happen, is it?

[Audie]

Audie -- you certainly don't like people contradicting you. As for the existence of miracles -- they Do happen. In fact, people have acknowledged that God saved them from certain death -- That has happened after accidents on the news-- after storms -- or their tumor disappeared -- That happened to a man in our church. He'd had a brain tumor -- it was beginning to take it's toll on him. They prayed over him - laid hands on him. Shortly after that was the next appt. and they could Not find a trace of that tumor. And they thanked God for His healing. And some times it's used fasciciously -- "That sure was a miracle -- that I passed the test ".
In fact --one of my brother-in-laws was on the operating table and he started to bleed-out. The surgeons were doing all they Could and said after the fact that they 'watched as God worked His miracle' -- they said that there was No reason he should have survived that surgery. Now --there Are people who would say that the surgeon was incompetent and try to get him for malpractice Rather than be thankful for God's working His miracle. I chose to include that last sentence because there are possibly those who Would say that themselves. So I'm saving 'them' the time / trouble.
Now, if someone doesn't really believe in God -- they won't be accepting the existence of the supernatural, either.

I've faults enough, no need for you to invent any.

Every religion and tribal healer claims miracles, yet nobody
sees legs grow back.

As Twain put it, "If it is a miracle, any sort of evidence will answer
but if it is a Fact, proof isnecessary."

Actually Audi that isn't entirely correct
Ever heard of the miracle of calandra ?
This miracle of a mans limb growing back in the 1700's was pretty well documented by the doctor that first examined him .
https://churchpop.com/2016/01/12/god-cu ... f-calanda/

This miracle has given many an atheist headaches

The headache might properly be for those defenders of the faith who are
embarrassed by people whose naive credulity brings the nature of faith into
such shame and ridicule.

[bippy123]

"This miracle has given many an atheist headaches." I wonder if that's true. Sadly I don't have the inclination to read the pithily entitled "Copia literal y auténtica del proceso, y sentencia de calificación sobre milagro obrado por la intercesión de nuestra Señora del Pilar en la villa de Calanda" but I'm not sure I, who am not an atheist, would find a natural explanation for the 'miracle' very difficult to find. The fact that the miraculously restored leg did not, in fact, grow back, but was replaced exactly as it was before the accident, complete with scars and bruises from previous accidents, is quaintly incredible, I think. What's more, it wasn't even a new, replica leg, but the original, as the hole in which the amputated leg was buried was excavated and found empty. Truly God works in mysterious ways...

Do you have a link to verify what you just said Hugh ?

[Audie]

You think you've presented tangible parameters for something, but I don't know what exactly.

What about generally longer lives and happier, better health, etc. Any studies you got there?

I was hoping you guys could provide anything other than hope for pie in the sky as a benefit from Christianity.



http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/main ... gion310px/
.

[melanie]

I get what Audie is saying.....
I've felt the same as far as these so called miraculous healings go.
I've seen first hand Pentecostal healings and they were a farce. Nobody with any significant illnesses were cured. I visited with my nan who was in a wheelchair after suffering 2 strokes and whilst minor things were apparently 'healed' those with the most significant ailments went home as sick and crippled as before.
If anyone had the power of healing physically in the manner we claim then I personally would be in the paediatric cancer clinic.
Healing the most innocent and deserving.

I still believe in miracles but not in the realm of growing back limbs but in healing hearts. Restoring worth and connecting spirits.
Do I think it's possible for miraculous physical healing.... Sure
But not on a stage show, not in the manner we seem to need.
It seems like we require a water into wine, a walking on water, healing of the blind to justify, maintain, justify or secure faith.
It doesn't work like that.

The biggest miracle that we have, that previously wasn't around pre Jesus is what's written on our hearts.
In the Old Testament Moses needed personal revelation from God.
Man connecting to God.
Then Jesus came and rocked our world, it was God connecting to man.

Now we live in an era where the Holy Spirit resides in us.
God living within.

God isn't our miracle puppet.
We think if He would just do some spectacular stuff, enough times, too enough people, to satisfy our clinical nature without question, on camera, at the right time, to the right audience then all the answers would be answered.
I think we already know that wouldn't be enough...

ohhh but just grow a limb....
If there is a God blow our collective minds!!!
Perhaps we are blown away everyday but we are so caught up we don't see it.
I find it everyday with my kids who are immature and impulsive and need external stimuli. They know I love them ridiculously but they prod me everyday for reassurance. I want this... Read to me, watch me dance, show me love, give me appreciation, show me appreciation, come to my soccer game, coach my AFL , be on canteen ect.
So I do,
I don't fix every wrong, I don't prevent every injury, I can't be there every second, I don't and can't pander to their every whim, I can't make sure everything is perfect and I wouldn't even if I could.
I am there 100% but they need to learn. To fail, to work it our for themselves.
The most loving thing I can do is let them grow......
To not fix everything
To step back back.
The hardest lesson I have learnt is to back off...
Because it benefits them in the long run.

As a parent if I could take away every hurdle even the most traumatic before they could experience it, then I robbing them.
Of evolving , of growing into who they are meant to be.

Life isn't designed to be one miraculous turn after another
It's for our benefit to learn and grow.
Each hurdle, every sorrow and all life experience.
God isn't robbing us, He is enriching us...

[hughfarey]

Do you have a link to verify what you just said Hugh ?

Well, if you have any old Spanish you could try "Copia literal y auténtica del proceso, y sentencia de calificación sobre milagro obrado por la intercesión de nuestra Señora del Pilar en la villa de Calanda", which is on the internet, but I believe my information (which is on wikipedia) comes from Vittorio Messori's book Il Miraculo, which is not, but available for €6.50 from amazon.it.

[Audie]

I get what Audie is saying.....
I've felt the same as far as these so called miraculous healings go.
I've seen first hand Pentecostal healings and they were a farce. Nobody with any significant illnesses were cured. I visited with my nan who was in a wheelchair after suffering 2 strokes and whilst minor things were apparently 'healed' those with the most significant ailments went home as sick and crippled as before.
If anyone had the power of healing physically in the manner we claim then I personally would be in the paediatric cancer clinic.
Healing the most innocent and deserving.

I still believe in miracles but not in the realm of growing back limbs but in healing hearts. Restoring worth and connecting spirits.
Do I think it's possible for miraculous physical healing.... Sure
But not on a stage show, not in the manner we seem to need.
It seems like we require a water into wine, a walking on water, healing of the blind to justify, maintain, justify or secure faith.
It doesn't work like that.

The biggest miracle that we have, that previously wasn't around pre Jesus is what's written on our hearts.
In the Old Testament Moses needed personal revelation from God.
Man connecting to God.
Then Jesus came and rocked our world, it was God connecting to man.

Now we live in an era where the Holy Spirit resides in us.
God living within.

God isn't our miracle puppet.
We think if He would just do some spectacular stuff, enough times, too enough people, to satisfy our clinical nature without question, on camera, at the right time, to the right audience then all the answers would be answered.
I think we already know that wouldn't be enough...

ohhh but just grow a limb....
If there is a God blow our collective minds!!!
Perhaps we are blown away everyday but we are so caught up we don't see it.
I find it everyday with my kids who are immature and impulsive and need external stimuli. They know I love them ridiculously but they prod me everyday for reassurance. I want this... Read to me, watch me dance, show me love, give me appreciation, show me appreciation, come to my soccer game, coach my AFL , be on canteen ect.
So I do,
I don't fix every wrong, I don't prevent every injury, I can't be there every second, I don't and can't pander to their every whim, I can't make sure everything is perfect and I wouldn't even if I could.
I am there 100% but they need to learn. To fail, to work it our for themselves.
The most loving thing I can do is let them grow......
To not fix everything
To step back back.
The hardest lesson I have learnt is to back off...
Because it benefits them in the long run.

As a parent if I could take away every hurdle even the most traumatic before they could experience it, then I robbing them.
Of evolving , of growing into who they are meant to be.

Life isn't designed to be one miraculous turn after another
It's for our benefit to learn and grow.
Each hurdle, every sorrow and all life experience.
God isn't robbing us, He is enriching us...

I do tend to think that such god as there may be couldnt help but be smart enough to know how to convince people he is real. The problem is not in skepticism, but in a lack of demonstration.

And that is ok. Why should he dance for us?

Regarding the Pentacostal etc stage healings, it is really a shame.

It is a fraud.

Now, I dont actually care one way or the other if people are or become Christians.

Looking at it from the outside, tho, if one sees that the sort of people who are convinced by the bible also are convinced by ads for copper bracelets to cure arthritis, tales of Nessie
and the latest discovery of Noahs ark, it tends not to give a good impression, it makes anything the person says suspect.

[Audie]

I get what Audie is saying.....
I've felt the same as far as these so called miraculous healings go.
I've seen first hand Pentecostal healings and they were a farce. Nobody with any significant illnesses were cured. I visited with my nan who was in a wheelchair after suffering 2 strokes and whilst minor things were apparently 'healed' those with the most significant ailments went home as sick and crippled as before.
If anyone had the power of healing physically in the manner we claim then I personally would be in the paediatric cancer clinic.
Healing the most innocent and deserving.

I still believe in miracles but not in the realm of growing back limbs but in healing hearts. Restoring worth and connecting spirits.
Do I think it's possible for miraculous physical healing.... Sure
But not on a stage show, not in the manner we seem to need.
It seems like we require a water into wine, a walking on water, healing of the blind to justify, maintain, justify or secure faith.
It doesn't work like that.

The biggest miracle that we have, that previously wasn't around pre Jesus is what's written on our hearts.
In the Old Testament Moses needed personal revelation from God.
Man connecting to God.
Then Jesus came and rocked our world, it was God connecting to man.

Now we live in an era where the Holy Spirit resides in us.
God living within.

God isn't our miracle puppet.
We think if He would just do some spectacular stuff, enough times, too enough people, to satisfy our clinical nature without question, on camera, at the right time, to the right audience then all the answers would be answered.
I think we already know that wouldn't be enough...

ohhh but just grow a limb....
If there is a God blow our collective minds!!!
Perhaps we are blown away everyday but we are so caught up we don't see it.
I find it everyday with my kids who are immature and impulsive and need external stimuli. They know I love them ridiculously but they prod me everyday for reassurance. I want this... Read to me, watch me dance, show me love, give me appreciation, show me appreciation, come to my soccer game, coach my AFL , be on canteen ect.
So I do,
I don't fix every wrong, I don't prevent every injury, I can't be there every second, I don't and can't pander to their every whim, I can't make sure everything is perfect and I wouldn't even if I could.
I am there 100% but they need to learn. To fail, to work it our for themselves.
The most loving thing I can do is let them grow......
To not fix everything
To step back back.
The hardest lesson I have learnt is to back off...
Because it benefits them in the long run.

As a parent if I could take away every hurdle even the most traumatic before they could experience it, then I robbing them.
Of evolving , of growing into who they are meant to be.

Life isn't designed to be one miraculous turn after another
It's for our benefit to learn and grow.
Each hurdle, every sorrow and all life experience.
God isn't robbing us, He is enriching us...

I do tend to think that such god as there may be couldnt help but be smart enough to know how to convince people he is real. The problem is not in skepticism, but in a lack of demonstration.

And that is ok. Why should he dance for us?

Regarding the Pentacostal etc stage healings, it is really a shame.

It is a fraud.

Now, I dont actually care one way or the other if people are or become Christians.

Looking at it from the outside, tho, if one sees that the sort of people who are convinced by the bible also are convinced by ads for copper bracelets to cure arthritis, tales of Nessie
and the latest discovery of Noahs ark, it tends not to give a good impression, it makes anything the person says suspect.

[Kurieuo]

You think you've presented tangible parameters for something, but I don't know what exactly.

What about generally longer lives and happier, better health, etc. Any studies you got there?

I was hoping you guys could provide anything other than hope for pie in the sky as a benefit from Christianity.



http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/main ... gion310px/
.

You're a laugh.

To be clear notice on your first stats where Atheism (Secular) lays.
I'm still at a loss about what you're trying to set about proving.

There is a reason I didn't provide anything, because I'm not convinced by stats.
It's open to confirmation bias and a particular selection in what "study" one chooses.

I'd much rather entertain truth, than some "perk" to be received in this life anyhow.