Shroud of Turin

[PaulSacramento]

Ah, miracles, to some the word is even more intimidating than faith, LOL !

A miracle is something that, at the time, defies logical explanation ( much like the big bang).
Of course people don't like the term miracle because it conjures up images of God.
Miracles ARE a part of nature, the COMPLETE nature that WE do NOT know enough about.
It makes no sense to me for a Christian to have issues with "miracles" or the "supernatural" since the one of the first things we MUST accept as a Christian IS the resurrection of Christ.
All hinges on the resurrection.
Period.

[Audie]

Ah, miracles, to some the word is even more intimidating than faith, LOL !

"Some", yes the perfect "other" so laughable, so immaterial, so easy to defeat in battle or debate of any sort, to whom one is so superior. Never identified, just out there somewhere.

A miracle is something that, at the time, defies logical explanation ( much like the big bang).

That is really a hilarious definition. Yup, lightning was a miracle up till recently.

Of course people don't like the term miracle because it conjures up images of God.

Those dread 'others", those 'some" people. About whom nothing is known except what one makes up as suits.

Miracles ARE a part of nature, the COMPLETE nature that WE do NOT know enough about.

So you say. Tho sure, there are lots of things nobody knows till maybe they do, but they are miracles till then. Is there a ceremony, like when St. Christopher stopped being a saint, to demiraculate something?

It makes no sense to me for a Christian to have issues with "miracles" or the "supernatural" since the one of the first things we MUST accept as a Christian IS the resurrection of Christ.

So Jesus on a pancake, none should doubt. Makes no sense to.





Period.

[PaulSacramento]

That was probably one of the silliest counter posts I have ever read.
I am pretty sure I didn't write it in german...

[hughfarey]

I don't think the big bang defies logical explanation at all. That's the whole point of Theistic Rationalism. But I agree with Audie that lots of things which could not be explained at the time were not considered miracles. The essence of a miracle is that it strengthens faith, not that it is inexplicable. In that sense, the big bang was not a miracle.

[RickD]

I think a miracle is something that has no natural explanation. Miracles can have a logical explanation.

[Audie]

I think a miracle is something that has no natural explanation. Miracles can have a logical explanation.

Miracles are things that didnt actually happen.

[abelcainsbrother]

It really either comes down to revelation from God or speculation from man that we choose to go with.

[bippy123]

Frankly I don't know what happened at either event. I am happy to say that "I believe" in a Christ who "came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father." What exactly physically is meant by coming down, becoming incarnate, rising, ascending and sitting at the father's right hand, I don't know. The Creed does not concern itself with physical details, and there is nothing physical to use as evidence. It's a theological expression, not a science book. In the absence of evidence, I would say that I take these things largely on trust. I also, in common with Pope Benedict XVI, think that "we may not ascribe to God anything nonsensical or irrational, or anything the contradicts his creation," and in common with Pope Francis, that God is not a "a magician, complete with an all powerful magic wand," but lets things "develop according to the internal laws with which He endowed each one, that they might develop, and reach their fullness."

But Hugh if your an plying the same kind of evidence that you say that your applying to the study of the shroud how can you believe in a resurrection or empty tomb unless you had incontrovertible evidence that you witnessed them happening yourself ?

What I mean is that do you apply the same standards of evidence to those that you do to the other things as a theistic rationalist .

I'm starting to understand your position a little better now

[hughfarey]

I'm not applying the same standards of evidence. Nobody ever does. There are several factors that lead towards a conclusion, some related to the evidence for it, and some related to the value of the conclusion. The exact nature of the Resurrection is not very important to the value of Christianity, so I'm not kept awake at night by it. The rationality of the Universe is crucial to my understanding of it, so I would require very strong evidence before I was convinced that the Universe, including the Resurrection, was not rational. That being so, I think that the Shroud was created within the laws of physics, and would require very strong evidence to convince me that it was not. However, that has little bearing on whether it's authentic or not, which is not very important one way or the other.

[DRDS]

Just randomly curious Hugh, do you work for the Richard Dawkins Foundation? I'm being serious too.

[hughfarey]

Just randomly curious Hugh, do you work for the Richard Dawkins Foundation? I'm being serious too.

That's OK; you're not the first person to ask that. The answer is no. I'm a cradle Catholic, was brought up in two Catholic schools, one a monastery, and have worked full-time in a Catholic School for 40 years. I am a dogged attender at church services, and an attentive reader of Catholic studies. I think that my personal beliefs co-incide almost exactly with the Catholic Faith, as expressed in the Catholic Creed, the Catholic Catechism and the theological works of Catholics, especially the three most recent Popes. I'm often asked, mostly by Christians who do not adhere to any particular 'group', how all this can be. They are worthy and well-intentioned people, who believe that individual attention to the bible is all a Christian needs for a complete understanding of Christianity. But they are wrong. Hopelessly enmeshed in their own interpretations, they cannot see that there are other ways of understanding, just as valid as their own, and supported by a great deal more scholarship, prayer and communal exploration than any individual could ever achieve.

Not that anybody here falls into that category, of course.

[RickD]

I think a miracle is something that has no natural explanation. Miracles can have a logical explanation.

Miracles are things that didnt actually happen.

[Kurieuo]

I think a miracle is something that has no natural explanation. Miracles can have a logical explanation.

Miracles are things that didnt actually happen.

You just mean miracles are non-things right, I mean if they don't actually happen then they're not anything.

[Audie]

I think a miracle is something that has no natural explanation. Miracles can have a logical explanation.

Miracles are things that didnt actually happen.

You just mean miracles are non-things right, I mean if they don't actually happen then they're not anything.

No, I generally say what I mean.

[PaulSacramento]

I love how people love to redefine the dictionary:

mir·a·cle
ˈmirək(ə)l/
noun
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.
"the miracle of rising from the grave"
synonyms: wonder, marvel, sensation, phenomenon, supernatural phenomenon, mystery
"his recovery was a blessed miracle"
a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences.
"it was a miracle that more people hadn't been killed or injured"
an amazing product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something.
"a machine which was a miracle of design"
synonyms: wonder, marvel, sensation, phenomenon, supernatural phenomenon, mystery
"his recovery was a blessed miracle"


and:

Miracle | Define Miracle at Dictionary.com
www.dictionary.com/browse/miracle
an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause. 2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God. 3. a wonder; marvel.

and:

Miracle | Definition of Miracle by Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miracle
Full Definition of miracle. 1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs. 2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment. 3 Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law.

and:

miracle - definition of miracle in English from the Oxford dictionary
www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/miracle
1An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency: the miracle of rising from ..


And that is just the first on any google search.

in short and universally, the definition of a miracle is:
An event that can NOT be explained by natural laws and is therefore, attributed to a divine agency.

I would not argue that not everyone attributes it to a divine agency.

The point being that the UNIVERSAL definition of a miracle is an event that can NOT be explained by natural laws.

Period.