Baptizing H floresiensis

[crochet1949]

I'm not sure how I feel about Adam and Eve, evolution and so on but my thinking is that is it not possible that any preexisting humans had a soul but weren't made in His image.
The biggest mystery to me is why. Animals, I get, God gave them to us to love and learn from but preexisting humans. Why?

There has been life on earth for many hundreds of millions of years.

During that time, the fossil record clearly shows that some successful designs have remained more or less unchanged, others were not successful and disappeared.

Yet others show a succession of changes, then the line died out, or, a succession of changes that continued up to this day.

The primates are not an exception, there is a fossil record for them too.

WHY were there hominid ancestors? Because they could survive and reproduce.

IF they had not existed,you wouldnt either.

What is the mystery?

'that some successful designs' have remained more or less unchanged. Designs require a Designer.
The 'hundreds of millions of years' -- is trying to fit enough good mutations into mankinds' history to get us to where we look like we do Now. There would Never be 'enough time' to have enough good mutations to do that.
Maybe we simply need to accept that 'enough good mutations' Can't / Didn't 'evolve' us into what we are Now.

[Audie]

I'm not sure how I feel about Adam and Eve, evolution and so on but my thinking is that is it not possible that any preexisting humans had a soul but weren't made in His image.
The biggest mystery to me is why. Animals, I get, God gave them to us to love and learn from but preexisting humans. Why?

There has been life on earth for many hundreds of millions of years.

During that time, the fossil record clearly shows that some successful designs have remained more or less unchanged, others were not successful and disappeared.

Yet others show a succession of changes, then the line died out, or, a succession of changes that continued up to this day.

The primates are not an exception, there is a fossil record for them too.

WHY were there hominid ancestors? Because they could survive and reproduce.

IF they had not existed,you wouldnt either.

What is the mystery?

'that some successful designs' have remained more or less unchanged. Designs require a Designer.
The 'hundreds of millions of years' -- is trying to fit enough good mutations into mankinds' history to get us to where we look like we do Now. There would Never be 'enough time' to have enough good mutations to do that.
Maybe we simply need to accept that 'enough good mutations' Can't / Didn't 'evolve' us into what we are Now.

The word "design" is not ideal, but lets not play equivocation.

The "design requires a designer" is, sorry, but a tiresome old saw. Every snowflake is designed
too? What word would not imply, to you, a designer? I will use that one.

Hundreds of millions of years is not some dishonest bit of force fitting.
There has been life for that long.

Life of the past was very different from life of today. Just a fact.

That life on earth has undergone a series of changes is beyond anything
resembling reasonable dispute, hollow assertions to the contrary not
with, as they say, standing.

[abelcainsbrother]

Flurry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmbroO7nmVo

[abelcainsbrother]

The Gap theory I'm assuming is referring to a supposed gap between Genesis 1:1 and 2. THAT has been debated for a long time. What people are trying to put Into that Gap of Time is kind of interesting. Pure speculation.

Going back to basics -- hominids - human beings - there had to be a male and female together in order to reproduce themselves. Generation by generation they continued to reproduce 'like themselves' -- So Where did the first of Them Come From. They Had to have a set of parents -- just like We do. And How do we know that people / that We have a soul. Where would we Get our soul From? And, yes, the Bible teaches that we Do have a soul. But do people who Don't believe in God Not Have one? And those who Do believe Do have One. And what happens when someone changes their beliefs -- how do they gain or loose their soul.

Audie -- you were assuming in that 1st post? that an individual / 'existing personage' was found to exist -- would they be brought into the Church to 'get saved'? But IF we Did evolve from 'something' other than human - can a soul evolve with the species. Because our soul is what makes us people -- different from animals. So -- apparently -- at Some point in past history -- there was a hominid that turned into a People. That simply Does Not Happen.

Most who reject the Gap Theory don't know enough about it to understand it,but this is not the thread to get into it here.I was just giving the Gap Theory perspective as it relates to hominids who were a Pre-Adamite race of beings that have nothing to do with this world like most think,hence why I posted 2nd Peter 3:3-4 because it is fulfilled bible prophecy that people would claim they are our fathers and that all things have continued since the beginning of the creation which is what evolution teaches us in these last days.But they have nothing to do with this world and they were not humans and they had no soul like a man.There are other threads to discuss the Gap Theory further if you would like to sometime as I'm not going to derail this thread about it.

[crochet1949]

Okay -- and How do we know that Any race had no soul like a man. No one can See a 'soul'. The only time That would apparent is in eternity when God either welcomes the 'soul' to heaven or castes the 'soul' into hell.

[abelcainsbrother]

Okay -- and How do we know that Any race had no soul like a man. No one can See a 'soul'. The only time That would apparent is in eternity when God either welcomes the 'soul' to heaven or castes the 'soul' into hell.

It comes from reading Genesis and what God did when he created Adam,he gave him a soul,yet he did not give animals a soul.And man was a new creation so this is how we know they had no soul and were not man.

[crochet1949]

I'm not sure how I feel about Adam and Eve, evolution and so on but my thinking is that is it not possible that any preexisting humans had a soul but weren't made in His image.
The biggest mystery to me is why. Animals, I get, God gave them to us to love and learn from but preexisting humans. Why?

There has been life on earth for many hundreds of millions of years.

During that time, the fossil record clearly shows that some successful designs have remained more or less unchanged, others were not successful and disappeared.

Yet others show a succession of changes, then the line died out, or, a succession of changes that continued up to this day.

The primates are not an exception, there is a fossil record for them too.

WHY were there hominid ancestors? Because they could survive and reproduce.

IF they had not existed,you wouldnt either.

What is the mystery?

'that some successful designs' have remained more or less unchanged. Designs require a Designer.
The 'hundreds of millions of years' -- is trying to fit enough good mutations into mankinds' history to get us to where we look like we do Now. There would Never be 'enough time' to have enough good mutations to do that.
Maybe we simply need to accept that 'enough good mutations' Can't / Didn't 'evolve' us into what we are Now.

The word "design" is not ideal, but lets not play equivocation.

The "design requires a designer" is, sorry, but a tiresome old saw. Every snowflake is designed
too? What word would not imply, to you, a designer? I will use that one.

Hundreds of millions of years is not some dishonest bit of force fitting.
There has been life for that long.

Life of the past was very different from life of today. Just a fact.

That life on earth has undergone a series of changes is beyond anything
resembling reasonable dispute, hollow assertions to the contrary not
with, as they say, standing.

Audie -- You were the one who used the term 'design' -- there Is No word I'd use to not imply a designer -- because I believe In a designer. It might be a tiresome old saw -- but it's True.

I Have heard that each snow flake is unique -- we don't get many of those where I live. I grew up with them, though. But at That time in life, I wasn't too concerned about their shape.

You're correct -- the earth Has gone through changes -- the biggest was the effects of the global flood.

Life of 50 yrs ago is different from that of today.

We'll simply be agreeing to disagree.

[crochet1949]

Okay -- and How do we know that Any race had no soul like a man. No one can See a 'soul'. The only time That would apparent is in eternity when God either welcomes the 'soul' to heaven or castes the 'soul' into hell.

It comes from reading Genesis and what God did when he created Adam,he gave him a soul,yet he did not give animals a soul.And man was a new creation so this is how we know they had no soul.

And since there was no other mankind before Adam -- we agree on the 'soul'.

[hughfarey]

So -- apparently -- at Some point in past history -- there was a hominid that turned into a People. That simply Does Not Happen.

On the contrary, Crotchet, it simply does. If you have difficulty thinking God could have managed something for which he has also left excellent paleontological evidence, I find it strange that you have no difficulty in accepting the spontaneous popping into existence of a pair of fully grown adult humans. Now that, in my opinion, simply Does Not Happen.

Designs require a Designer.

I couldn't agree more; but what sort of designer do they require, and how did the Designer go about it? Rivers, it seems to me, very cleverly design themselves as they pick exactly the least resistive way from their sources towards the sea, and galaxies seem to gather in their stars in beautifully co-ordinated swirls. The design of the Universe is a spectacularly complex unfolding of an unimaginably vast an coordinated plan, not the arbitrary scattering of biological specimens.

There would Never be 'enough time' to have enough good mutations to do that.
Maybe we simply need to accept that 'enough good mutations' Can't / Didn't 'evolve' us into what we are Now.

On the contrary, there has been plenty of time for sufficient mutations to turn a primordial blob into a human being. I surprised you don't think God could have arranged his creation to do that, especially as he left so much evidence behind to show what he has done.

Most who reject the Gap Theory don't know enough about it to understand it.

Actually the reverse is true. The more anyone understands Gap theory, the less credible it becomes.

Okay -- and How do we know that Any race had no soul like a man? No one can See a 'soul'. The only time That would be apparent is in eternity when God either welcomes the 'soul' to heaven or castes the 'soul' into hell.

Crotchet, you must see that you cannot support a position by asking people who don't believe it to support it for you. "How do we know that Any race had no soul like a man? No one can See a 'soul'." Quite. That's why evolutionary theory explains Genesis so much better than a literal reading of it

It comes from reading Genesis and what God did when he created Adam,he gave him a soul,yet he did not give animals a soul. And man was a new creation so this is how we know they had no soul and were not man.

So it all depends on how one interprets a 16th century English translation of a 250BC Greek translation of a 2500 year old collection of Hebrew oral traditions from a thousand years earlier. And you believe your version is better than everybody else's. On what authority?

[abelcainsbrother]

So -- apparently -- at Some point in past history -- there was a hominid that turned into a People. That simply Does Not Happen.

On the contrary, Crotchet, it simply does. If you have difficulty thinking God could have managed something for which he has also left excellent paleontological evidence, I find it strange that you have no difficulty in accepting the spontaneous popping into existence of a pair of fully grown adult humans. Now that, in my opinion, simply Does Not Happen.

Designs require a Designer.

I couldn't agree more; but what sort of designer do they require, and how did the Designer go about it? Rivers, it seems to me, very cleverly design themselves as they pick exactly the least resistive way from their sources towards the sea, and galaxies seem to gather in their stars in beautifully co-ordinated swirls. The design of the Universe is a spectacularly complex unfolding of an unimaginably vast an coordinated plan, not the arbitrary scattering of biological specimens.

There would Never be 'enough time' to have enough good mutations to do that.
Maybe we simply need to accept that 'enough good mutations' Can't / Didn't 'evolve' us into what we are Now.

On the contrary, there has been plenty of time for sufficient mutations to turn a primordial blob into a human being. I surprised you don't think God could have arranged his creation to do that, especially as he left so much evidence behind to show what he has done.

Most who reject the Gap Theory don't know enough about it to understand it.

Actually the reverse is true. The more anyone understands Gap theory, the less credible it becomes.

Okay -- and How do we know that Any race had no soul like a man? No one can See a 'soul'. The only time That would be apparent is in eternity when God either welcomes the 'soul' to heaven or castes the 'soul' into hell.

Crotchet, you must see that you cannot support a position by asking people who don't believe it to support it for you. "How do we know that Any race had no soul like a man? No one can See a 'soul'." Quite. That's why evolutionary theory explains Genesis so much better than a literal reading of it

It comes from reading Genesis and what God did when he created Adam,he gave him a soul,yet he did not give animals a soul. And man was a new creation so this is how we know they had no soul and were not man.

So it all depends on how one interprets a 16th century English translation of a 250BC Greek translation of a 2500 year old collection of Hebrew oral traditions from a thousand years earlier. And you believe your version is better than everybody else's. On what authority?

It makes no difference whether you understand the Gap Theory interpretation or not.It will still be a more believable theory than the theory of evolution is if taught side by side and based on much of the very same evidence you are going by.We just show how the evidence in the earth proves there was a former lost world that has been overlooked.The evidence will show to an unbiased audience that there was a former world much,much different than this world we now live in now with much different kinds of life that lived in the former world.This is what the fossils tell us,they do not and will tell nobody life evolves,it will be you adding your evolution imagination to the fossils.

I'd like to see how you explain looking at a dinosaur proves it evolved into a bird,because they show that they lived in a much different world than this world,add in all other fossils found and a former world totally different than this world will be morebelievable,especially when it cannot even be demonstrated life evolves or speciation happens..This is why I accept the Gap Theory over all other interpretations.It is based on the evidence and so it confirms this biblical interpretation.

The reason why much of the very same evidence evolutionists go by confirms this interpretation is because Charles Darwin hijacked this evidence that confirmed the Gap Theory interpretation by making the theory of evolution fit into this evidence.We are just doing what Charles Darwin did to us and taking back our evidence.

[Kurieuo]

It's been suggested that God gave souls to A and E, thus making them
materially and spiritually different from all their ancestors.

Should it turn out, tho, that a little band of our "Hobbit" cousins * is yet
living in Indonesia, and they are discovered, are they to be brought into the church, or, is there no point to it?

*substitute H erectus, habilis, etc as one likes, same question.

Animals have souls of the species that they are. Notwithstanding that "hobbits" seems rather dorogatory (would you like being called hobbit?), and also your ecclesiology seems confused such that I couldn't answer your question (should they be bought into the church, like huh, what's this "the church" to you?), how would you be if we also found out many believed in God?

[hughfarey]

It makes no difference whether you understand the Gap Theory interpretation or not.

But I do understand the Gap Theory. Perfectly. And it's unsupported by evidence, logically inconsistent and theologically unsound.

It will still be a more believable theory than the theory of evolution is if taught side by side and based on much of the very same evidence you are going by.We just show how the evidence in the earth proves there was a former lost world that has been overlooked.

No, you don't. You mostly ask questions.

The evidence will show to an unbiased audience that there was a former world much,much different than this world we now live in now with much different kinds of life that lived in the former world.

That is obviously true, but neither the Gap Theory nor Evolution deny it. What Gap Theory insists upon, and Evolution denies is that the transition from one to the other was instantaneous.

This is what the fossils tell us,they do not and will tell nobody life evolves,it will be you adding your evolution imagination to the fossils.

No. The opposite is true. The discovery and investigation of fossils was an important part of the formulation of the theory of evolution, not the other way round.

I'd like to see how you explain looking at a dinosaur proves it evolved into a bird,because they show that they lived in a much different world than this world

With the greatest respect, this query, and it's the second time you've asked, shows very clearly how little you understand of the fossil record, which, since the fossil record seems to be your main source of scientific evidence, is a bit of a downer for your Gap Theory. Of course you cannot look at a dinosaur and 'prove' it evolved into a bird. Since the dinosaur came first, no 'vestige of the future' is embedded in it. It would be a bit more sensible to inquire how looking at a bird 'proves' (not a good word - avoid it, is my advice) that it evolved from a dinosaur. But you haven't. Twice.

This is why I accept the Gap Theory over all other interpretations.

You are very welcome to your beliefs, of course, however irrational.

[RickD]

It's been suggested that God gave souls to A and E, thus making them
materially and spiritually different from all their ancestors.

Should it turn out, tho, that a little band of our "Hobbit" cousins * is yet
living in Indonesia, and they are discovered, are they to be brought into the church, or, is there no point to it?

*substitute H erectus, habilis, etc as one likes, same question.

Animals have souls of the species that they are. Notwithstanding that "hobbits" seems rather dorogatory (would you like being called hobbit?), and also your ecclesiology seems confused such that I couldn't answer your question (should they be bought into the church, like huh, what's this "the church" to you?), how would you be if we also found out many believed in God?

K,

At first I thought it was kind of funny that Audie used the term Hobbit. But it was actually in the news:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcnews. ... nt=safari#

[Kurieuo]

R, have you read how Middle Earth wants to ban the use of "hobbit"?

[RickD]

Audie,

I'm glad you're finally catching on. You wrote:

During that time, the fossil record clearly shows that some successful designs have remained more or less unchanged,...

Designs can come only from a designer.

Maybe your time here isn't only about arguing against God. It's nice to see a glimmer of hope that you can be reasonable, from time to time.

Maybe it's only your subconscious that prompted you to use the term "designer". Nevertheless, it's a step in the right direction.