Ark encounter

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Nessa
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by Nessa »

hughfarey wrote:
Nicki wrote:So do you think the Ten Commandments were decided on and written by some person(s) and they're not all (or any of them) from God? Why do you think he would want them included in his word then? Do you think any of them should be followed, and why? I'm not meaning to be confrontational, just trying to tease out your thinking about these things. Regarding the graven images, I think the implication was that the images would be made to be worshipped - that was probably the only use people had for statues and so on in that place and time.
If you were a Catholic, Nicki, I would direct you to the Catechism, which discusses the matter quite well, or the old Catholic Encyclopaedia, which also has a good section on it. However, let's see what I can do.
Why do we say, of any piece of writing or theatre or creative work, that it is "inspired". Because it seems to capture the nature of something with particular clarity? Because it has an effect on people far beyond what it seems on the surface to attempt? Because it seems that its author could not have produced it entirely from his own experience? There are a number of possible reasons. But however "inspired" the dancing of Rudolf Nureyev, for example, or 'Hamlet', or the sculpture of Michaelangelo, its significance pales towards the trivial compared to the influence and power of the bible. I think it's an example of "by their fruits ye shall know them". The people who first formulated the stories were inspired in that their stories, rather than many others, were found relevant and memorable. The people who first wrote them down were inspired in the choice of stories from the many others which could have been included in the Hebrew bible, and the Christian scholars of the first few centuries were inspired in their selection of the Canon. Even so, there remain some half a dozen books about which divine inspiration is disputed from sect to sect.
Essentially, the Old Testament was originally created for a small Middle Eastern Nation, of obscure nomadic origin, and a propensity for sporadic invasion and exile. Even by the time of Jesus, injunctions specific to nomadic life were beginning to be found less useful than they were, but it was part of the 'inspiration' of the Hebrew Bible that so much of it seemed universally relevant, so much so that our extraction of the ten commandments still forms the basis of a moral code today - respect for others, especially ones parents, the value of personal property and the family as the basis of society.
You are almost certainly correct that the injunction against any form of image was to counteract a belief, still present in some societies I believe, that any image at all somehow contained some of the character of the thing portrayed. The development of the monastic copying of books and statues, especially after the invention of printing, weakened this belief so much that it was no longer relevant to ban all 'graven images' and so that particular injunction was recognised as no longer valid.
Genesis 1, Genesis 2 and the story of the flood are all 'origins' myths, with specific, different meanings. Genesis 1 is a stunningly accurate guess at the progression of the universe, and the earth, through time. In detail, of course, it is completely wrong, but the reason we consider it inspired is in its understanding that the earth developed through time, from the simple to the complex, and in its understanding of the pre-eminence of man as a representative of God's reason. Genesis 2 explores the development of conscience, which is worthwhile, and the subservience of woman as little more than a detached organ of man, which is no longer worthwhile. The Noah story recognises the essential relatedness of all people (something later to be ignored as slaves became popular, but more recently joyfully affirmed by the theory of evolution) and even man's responsibility for, rather than domination of, the other animals.
The thing is Hugh...
Who or what is telling you which parts of the bible are true and which are not?
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Byblos
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Re: Ark encounter

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And now back to authority.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
hughfarey
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by hughfarey »

"By their fruits ye shall know them."
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RickD
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by RickD »

hughfarey wrote:"By their fruits ye shall know them."
What does recognizing false prophets, have to do with anything?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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hughfarey
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by hughfarey »

I guess by their fruits ye shall know them too!
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Byblos
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by Byblos »

hughfarey wrote:I guess by their fruits ye shall know them too!
Lol, hugh, now you're waxing philosophical (which is out of character of sorts).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
crochet1949
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Re: Ark encounter

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The passage that the phrase 'by their fruits ye shall know them' comes from the fact that when a person receives Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, the Holy Spirit comes immediately to indwell them -- Galations 5:22 -- those fruits of the spirit -- love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control -- can be observed in believers. That is why it is said ''a person can 'identify' a true believer because the 'fruits' of their lives will show Christ.

There is a real danger in taking a phrase out of it's context and applying it in ways it's not intended to be used.

So - Genesis 1 is a stunningly accurate guess , at the Big picture, but completely wrong in Detail. The small details Make the big picture. Have you ever worked on jig saw puzzles. All of the small puzzle pieces Have to be in the right place or the bigger picture Won't work.
The Noah story -- that's the big flood that killed lots of people and animals. I think you're referring to Adam and Eve and people having dominion over the animal world. Only you put it as having responsibility For the animals rather having dominion over them. Check out Genesis 1:26 and 27.

"And now back to authority" (Byblos)

Think I'll stick with God's Word --- John 14:6 Jesus is telling us that "I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by crochet1949 »

hugh -- you actually have a good point -- a prophet is known by their prophesies. If they are Not always True, they are False prophets -- but ya Don't want to be one of those.
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Byblos
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Re: Ark encounter

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crochet1949 wrote:"And now back to authority" (Byblos)

Think I'll stick with God's Word ---
:shakehead: I'm so sick of hearing this, really.

Here's what I propose: round up and lock up in the same room (or island) everyone that ever said this or still believes it and never let them out until they agree on what God's Word really means. How long do you think that will take Crochet?

Come on, let's be serious now.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
crochet1949
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by crochet1949 »

So -- What DOES God's Word Really mean?

What other "authority' Should we be listening to?

"Come on, let's be serious now"
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Byblos
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by Byblos »

crochet1949 wrote:So -- What DOES God's Word Really mean?

What other "authority' Should we be listening to?

"Come on, let's be serious now"
At a minimum I can say I don't know. But the answer certainly is NOT that you rely on God's Word and somehow imply that I (and hugh) don't. So please spare us the sanctimonious attitude.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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RickD
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by RickD »

Yes crochet,

We all know that Catholics do rely on God's word. It's just that they've added a few books to His word. Or, did we delete a few books? y:-? :scratch:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
PaulSacramento
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by PaulSacramento »

It isn't about which parts of the bible are true or not because ALL of the bible is true.
BUT, the bible is not ONE book but a collection of writings or various types and genres.
You can't read them all the same way.
We have historical books, poems, letters, biographies, prophecies, theological books, etc.

You can't simply make a blanket statement about the bible as if it was all ONE type of writing.
hughfarey
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by hughfarey »

crochet1949 wrote:Think I'll stick with God's Word --- John 14:6 Jesus is telling us that "I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."
That's fine. You stick to your rather idiosyncratic interpretation of God's word, and I'll stick to my rather more fruitful one...
hughfarey
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Re: Ark encounter

Post by hughfarey »

RickD wrote:Yes crochet,

We all know that Catholics do rely on God's word. It's just that they've added a few books to His word. Or, did we delete a few books? y:-? :scratch:
You deleted them, on the authority of non-Christians...
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