Am I a Christian?
- Storyteller
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Re: Am I a Christian?
Can carry this on in pm if its better...
How are non believers in grace?
How are non believers in grace?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
- RickD
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Re: Am I a Christian?
https://www.gci.org/law/nutshellStoryteller wrote:Can carry this on in pm if its better...
How are non believers in grace?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- Storyteller
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Re: Am I a Christian?
This ties in with it coming down to actively rejecting Christ, doesnt it?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
- RickD
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Re: Am I a Christian?
I'm not sure what you're asking.Storyteller wrote:This ties in with it coming down to actively rejecting Christ, doesnt it?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- Storyteller
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Re: Am I a Christian?
That the only way of not being in grace is by rejecting it, Christ.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
Re: Am I a Christian?
Everyone is born into the law, we move from condemnation of the law into the grace of the new covenant. If we don't decide to be apart of that covenant, we wont be. It isn't given by default, it's given by grace, which has to be accepted. People don't get condemned by the new covenant, but by the law. Grace, for a time, is opened to all. But no one has it, even when they do. So, we're only under the new covenant when we accept it and until we do are all under wrath and condemned by the law we are born into.RickD wrote: Non believers are still under grace. They are under the new covenant. We all are. Saying you have to accept the new covenant to be under it is not being consistent. You think non believers accept that they're under the law? Non believers, many of whom don't believe in God, accept that they're under the law of God?
God made a new covenant for all people. We are all under the new covenant. Some choose to accept the terms. Others don't.
Re: Am I a Christian?
YeahStoryteller wrote:That the only way of not being in grace is by rejecting it, Christ.
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Re: Am I a Christian?
I think we're talking about two different things.Storyteller wrote:That the only way of not being in grace is by rejecting it, Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- RickD
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Re: Am I a Christian?
Do you mind telling me where you are getting this from? Born into the law? What does that even mean? Scripture please.Mallz wrote:Everyone is born into the law, we move from condemnation of the law into the grace of the new covenant. If we don't decide to be apart of that covenant, we wont be. It isn't given by default, it's given by grace, which has to be accepted. People don't get condemned by the new covenant, but by the law. Grace, for a time, is opened to all. But no one has it, even when they do. So, we're only under the new covenant when we accept it and until we do are all under wrath and condemned by the law we are born into.RickD wrote: Non believers are still under grace. They are under the new covenant. We all are. Saying you have to accept the new covenant to be under it is not being consistent. You think non believers accept that they're under the law? Non believers, many of whom don't believe in God, accept that they're under the law of God?
God made a new covenant for all people. We are all under the new covenant. Some choose to accept the terms. Others don't.
We aren't born into nor under the law. The covenant of the OT law has ended. We are under the covenant of grace. The new covenant of the gospel of Christ.
I don't understand what you guys are talking about.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Re: Am I a Christian?
I showed you where it's coming from: Romans 2:14-15.RickD wrote:Do you mind telling me where you are getting this from? Born into the law? What does that even mean? Scripture please.Mallz wrote:Everyone is born into the law, we move from condemnation of the law into the grace of the new covenant. If we don't decide to be apart of that covenant, we wont be. It isn't given by default, it's given by grace, which has to be accepted. People don't get condemned by the new covenant, but by the law. Grace, for a time, is opened to all. But no one has it, even when they do. So, we're only under the new covenant when we accept it and until we do are all under wrath and condemned by the law we are born into.RickD wrote: Non believers are still under grace. They are under the new covenant. We all are. Saying you have to accept the new covenant to be under it is not being consistent. You think non believers accept that they're under the law? Non believers, many of whom don't believe in God, accept that they're under the law of God?
God made a new covenant for all people. We are all under the new covenant. Some choose to accept the terms. Others don't.
We aren't born into nor under the law. The covenant of the OT law has ended. We are under the covenant of grace. The new covenant of the gospel of Christ.
I don't understand what you guys are talking about.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
- RickD
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Re: Am I a Christian?
Sorry, you've lost me. I don't see those verses saying anything about Gentiles being born under the law. The Gentiles weren't given the law. The Jews in Paul's day were.Byblos wrote:I showed you where it's coming from: Romans 2:14-15.RickD wrote:Do you mind telling me where you are getting this from? Born into the law? What does that even mean? Scripture please.Mallz wrote:Everyone is born into the law, we move from condemnation of the law into the grace of the new covenant. If we don't decide to be apart of that covenant, we wont be. It isn't given by default, it's given by grace, which has to be accepted. People don't get condemned by the new covenant, but by the law. Grace, for a time, is opened to all. But no one has it, even when they do. So, we're only under the new covenant when we accept it and until we do are all under wrath and condemned by the law we are born into.RickD wrote: Non believers are still under grace. They are under the new covenant. We all are. Saying you have to accept the new covenant to be under it is not being consistent. You think non believers accept that they're under the law? Non believers, many of whom don't believe in God, accept that they're under the law of God?
God made a new covenant for all people. We are all under the new covenant. Some choose to accept the terms. Others don't.
We aren't born into nor under the law. The covenant of the OT law has ended. We are under the covenant of grace. The new covenant of the gospel of Christ.
I don't understand what you guys are talking about.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Re: Am I a Christian?
I seem to be losing you a lot lately.RickD wrote:Sorry, you've lost me. I don't see those verses saying anything about Gentiles being born under the law. The Gentiles weren't given the law. The Jews in Paul's day were.Byblos wrote:I showed you where it's coming from: Romans 2:14-15.RickD wrote:Do you mind telling me where you are getting this from? Born into the law? What does that even mean? Scripture please.Mallz wrote:Everyone is born into the law, we move from condemnation of the law into the grace of the new covenant. If we don't decide to be apart of that covenant, we wont be. It isn't given by default, it's given by grace, which has to be accepted. People don't get condemned by the new covenant, but by the law. Grace, for a time, is opened to all. But no one has it, even when they do. So, we're only under the new covenant when we accept it and until we do are all under wrath and condemned by the law we are born into.RickD wrote: Non believers are still under grace. They are under the new covenant. We all are. Saying you have to accept the new covenant to be under it is not being consistent. You think non believers accept that they're under the law? Non believers, many of whom don't believe in God, accept that they're under the law of God?
God made a new covenant for all people. We are all under the new covenant. Some choose to accept the terms. Others don't.
We aren't born into nor under the law. The covenant of the OT law has ended. We are under the covenant of grace. The new covenant of the gospel of Christ.
I don't understand what you guys are talking about.
Gentiles who are non-believers are judged by the same law that was written onto their hearts. God didn't give them a different law.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
- Kurieuo
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Re: Am I a Christian?
Oh, please, Rick, don't be obtuse with equivocations. It's killing me reading. Nonetheless, you make an important point that when the Law is often spoken about, we easily rip out the context of such being the Law as given to Israel or the Pentateuch.
The Mosaic Law didn't clearly didn't come around until Moses, and yet there were moral laws nonetheless that one could transgress and such as sin (go against God).
In Romans 6, Paul talks (to both Jew and Gentile in Rome) about not letting sin reign in us through the lusts of our physical bodies, for basically we are righteous, not by the Law but by Grace. (vv.12-14) Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? (v.15) How can this be relevant to Gentiles if they were never under any law? Really, most of Paul's words in Romans would be largely irrelevant.
Everyone was aware of a law in some way, which I do think the Romans 2 passage reveals. How else can one be judged if they don't have the Law? Well, God's written this law into our hearts, such that very our conscience either accuses or defends us. And each of us know full well that we break that law -- each of us knows we've done wrong at some point:
The Mosaic Law didn't clearly didn't come around until Moses, and yet there were moral laws nonetheless that one could transgress and such as sin (go against God).
- 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Romans 5:12-14)
In Romans 6, Paul talks (to both Jew and Gentile in Rome) about not letting sin reign in us through the lusts of our physical bodies, for basically we are righteous, not by the Law but by Grace. (vv.12-14) Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? (v.15) How can this be relevant to Gentiles if they were never under any law? Really, most of Paul's words in Romans would be largely irrelevant.
Everyone was aware of a law in some way, which I do think the Romans 2 passage reveals. How else can one be judged if they don't have the Law? Well, God's written this law into our hearts, such that very our conscience either accuses or defends us. And each of us know full well that we break that law -- each of us knows we've done wrong at some point:
- 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Am I a Christian?
K,
I'm not equivocating. At least not intentionally. Although, if you think I'm obtuse, I think you're kinda acute.
I'm not equivocating. At least not intentionally. Although, if you think I'm obtuse, I think you're kinda acute.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
- Kurieuo
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Re: Am I a Christian?
Err... I'm not sure how to respond to that. Really. I don't. Think I'll be going now.RickD wrote:K,
I'm not equivocating. At least not intentionally. Although, if you think I'm obtuse, I think you're kinda acute.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)