Stumbling Men

[swordfish7]

One other point: having good intentions does not make something right! Uzza touched the ark to steady it but was struck dead. He did not follow the law and he was punished for it, even though his intentions could be described as good. See 1 Chron. 13:9-14.

[swordfish7]

We cannot just attempt to use our logic to discern God's will, but we need to know God's inerrant word - the bible. This is how we keep ourselves out of sin once we are believers.

[melanie]

Apparently we also shouldn't mix fabrics or eat lobster, crayfish ect
Ever worn a garment of a blended fabric of wool and cotton? Had a nice feed lobster?
Logic is the reasoning behind why we know the bible was written at a time when custom and tradition were very different to what we know now.
The male patriarchal society which existed is no longer the determining factor of how society operates. Which from a biblical perspective is not the message of the gospel.
Which is to firstly love God and love your neighbour and be true in faith.
Which is why intention is extremely important.
It cuts through the law, religious expectations and gets to the heart of the matter.
Faith in Christ who died and redeemed us by grace in his resurrection.
This saving faith is not dependent on the law, strict obedience to scripture but rather a personal revelation that takes place within a believer. Regardless of one's attire. Saving faith does not require an expectation of dress which so widely depends on cultural and historical timing.
Once we grow in faith then our personal journey leads us to reflect the light of Christ that shines within. It's personal and introspective.
Women are God's reflection, exactly how we were destined.
Beautiful and nurturing.
The way in which we dress as Christians is a matter that is between ourselves and God. It does not excuse bad behavior or ill thought on anyone's behalf.
The only cause of sin is our own weakness.
This predated idea that if only woman dressed like the Armish then men wouldn't be tempted is bullcrap. Societies where woman are most restricted in dress does nothing to lessen rape or abuse. It may forward a preconceived ideal of morality but it does nothing to lesson or secure a woman against sexual abuse.
Lessening a woman's rights, by restricting her attire does nothing to secure morality but obstructs it. When you make a woman's worth dependent upon her clothing you degenerate her to the very sexual objectification that in principle religious groups are working against.

People should spend more time reflecting on themselves rather than deflecting on others!!

[RickD]

Apparently we also shouldn't mix fabrics or eat lobster, crayfish ect
Ever worn a garment of a blended fabric of wool and cotton? Had a nice feed lobster?
Logic is the reasoning behind why we know the bible was written at a time when custom and tradition were very different to what we know now.
The male patriarchal society which existed is no longer the determining factor of how society operates. Which from a biblical perspective is not the message of the gospel.
Which is to firstly love God and love your neighbour and be true in faith.
Which is why intention is extremely important.
It cuts through the law, religious expectations and gets to the heart of the matter.
Faith in Christ who died and redeemed us by grace in his resurrection.
This saving faith is not dependent on the law, strict obedience to scripture but rather a personal revelation that takes place within a believer. Regardless of one's attire. Saving faith does not require an expectation of dress which so widely depends on cultural and historical timing.
Once we grow in faith then our personal journey leads us to reflect the light of Christ that shines within. It's personal and introspective.
Women are God's reflection, exactly how we were destined.
Beautiful and nurturing.
The way in which we dress as Christians is a matter that is between ourselves and God. It does not excuse bad behavior or ill thought on anyone's behalf.
The only cause of sin is our own weakness.
This predated idea that if only woman dressed like the Armish then men wouldn't be tempted is bullcrap. Societies where woman are most restricted in dress does nothing to lessen rape or abuse. It may forward a preconceived ideal of morality but it does nothing to lesson or secure a woman against sexual abuse.
Lessening a woman's rights, by restricting her attire does nothing to secure morality but obstructs it. When you make a woman's worth dependent upon her clothing you degenerate her to the very sexual objectification that in principle religious groups are working against.

People should spend more time reflecting on themselves rather than deflecting on others!!

Written by a woman who clearly doesn't know her place.

[melanie]

Haha
And where's my sammich??

[Kurieuo]

Make me one too please Rick, my wife is on strike at the moment.

[swordfish7]

Apparently we also shouldn't mix fabrics or eat lobster, crayfish ect
Ever worn a garment of a blended fabric of wool and cotton? Had a nice feed lobster?
Logic is the reasoning behind why we know the bible was written at a time when custom and tradition were very different to what we know now.

So you seem to think that we should throw out all the old testament? What about following the ten commandments? Should we forget those? There are three types of law in the old testament: Judicial, ceremonial, and moral. The ceremonial law was done away with (Acts 10:14,15) as well as the judicial (John 8:11). The moral law is to be followed. So we must know how to interpret the old testament and understand the relation of the old testament to the new. We use logic but that logic needs to be based on the inerrant word of God and not our godless culture or the whims of our minds. The original point was that good intentions is not what God is looking for. I am reminded of the old saying that the path to hell is paved with "good intentions" or something similar. Ultimately, God is interested in holy living (John 15:10,14; Lev.11:45; 1 Chron. 16:29; Luke 1:75; 2 Cor. 7:1; Eph. 4:24; Heb.12:14; 1 Pet. 1:16; 2 Pet. 3:11) once we become believers!

The male patriarchal society which existed is no longer the determining factor of how society operates. Which from a biblical perspective is not the message of the gospel.

In Christian homes, the men should be the leaders spiritually and otherwise. They should be like Jesus were he was a servant leader leading with grace and love. Our society has destroyed the family which has led to the collapse of our society - this in part due to feminism where women devalue the raising of kids and the focus on the family. Careers and money are idols, where motherhood and raising kids are oftentimes neglected. Of course, there are many godly women who work outside the home, but they always put their family first and listen to and respect their husbands (Eph. 5:33; Eph.5:22-31; 1 Pet. 3:1-6; Pr. 11:16; Col. 3:18; Pr. 31; 1 Tim. 3:11; Tit. 2:4). As the husband and wife live out a godly life the picture of Christ and the marriage to the church is painted - beautiful imagery. In some way we understand how God views the church - His beautiful bride (Eph. 5:23-27,32; Rev. 21:2). So the relation of marriage with submission of the bride does picture the salvation of all believers with Christ the head (Rev. 21:5-10; Rev. 22:16,17).

Which is to firstly love God and love your neighbour and be true in faith.
Which is why intention is extremely important.
It cuts through the law, religious expectations and gets to the heart of the matter.
Faith in Christ who died and redeemed us by grace in his resurrection.
This saving faith is not dependent on the law, strict obedience to scripture but rather a personal revelation that takes place within a believer. Regardless of one's attire. Saving faith does not require an expectation of dress which so widely depends on cultural and historical timing.
Once we grow in faith then our personal journey leads us to reflect the light of Christ that shines within. It's personal and introspective.

Certainly, we are saved by grace through faith, but that does not mean we forget the law (Rom. 3:23-26; Rom. 3:31). Once we are saved we need to renew our minds (Rom. 12:1,2). Godly women will dress with modesty ( 1 Tim. 2:9,10; 1 Pet. 3:3-6) and have a humble spirit. Should a Christian women dress like some hooker or loose women? Should she dress like a "sex goddess"? No. I am not saying women cannot dress with fashion with a flare showing their beauty, but their needs to be some temperance where they don't shame their father in heaven.

Women are God's reflection, exactly how we were destined.
Beautiful and nurturing.

True.

The way in which we dress as Christians is a matter that is between ourselves and God. It does not excuse bad behavior or ill thought on anyone's behalf.
The only cause of sin is our own weakness.
This predated idea that if only woman dressed like the Armish then men wouldn't be tempted is bullcrap.

I am a man and I know many men who have trouble with purity. If a woman goes to church flaunting her body dressing like a hooker, then she WILL cause men to stumble. A trait of godly women are their modesty in public. Certainly we have liberty, but we don't want to use our liberty so other people sin. 1 Cor. 10:23,24 says, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the others well-being." Saying this is "bullcrap" shows lack of love. Now I do think men need to be pure in thought and they cannot blame all their purity problems on women - that would be unfair. But some women seem to think that their dress will not be judged by God, which is also wrong.

Societies where woman are most restricted in dress does nothing to lessen rape or abuse. It may forward a preconceived ideal of morality but it does nothing to lesson or secure a woman against sexual abuse.
Lessening a woman's rights, by restricting her attire does nothing to secure morality but obstructs it. When you make a woman's worth dependent upon her clothing you degenerate her to the very sexual objectification that in principle religious groups are working against.

It sounds to me you took some "Women's Studies" class in college, inherently based on godless feminism. I would never take any of their studies seriously where many have shown their studies to be biased with slanted statistics. I have observed first hand how godless men objectify women, where godly men treat women as sisters with real respect. Men who don't do this show themselves to be fraudulent Christians.

People should spend more time reflecting on themselves rather than deflecting on others!!

Real love seeks to edify the body of Christ and take responsibility for our own actions!

[B. W.]

Well, I do not think a woman wearing a bikini or a man wearing speedo in church is wise.I also do not think men should use the women's restroom locker rooms is wise either.

Let's face it, Men are aroused by sight and the sight of cleavage on a good looking gal, well, is distracting!

I've seen and heard the gals admiring a man with a firm behind and flat rippled stomach and V frame and they too become aroused...

Why is that Mel?
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[melanie]

No, BW. I don't think a man wearing a speedo or a woman wearing a bikini in church is wise.
Is this common practice in the US?. I watched Baywatch back in the day and I've never been to Malibu but I don't think this would occur. Maybe I've been attending the wrong churches, that's one way to boost attendance

Why do woman become aroused?
Because we're human.
Can we control it, absolutely.
Just as many men walk around with tight slacks and shirts that flaunt their bodies as woman.
My original post was not addressing the moral issue of dress per say, but why the onus is placed on women.
We are made to be the 'sinful' factor. With phrases like 'dressing like a hooker'.
Our morality is questioned and by that our Christianty on our attire. The double standard is crappy.
With outrageous comments from Swordfish like 'you must have attended a women's study course' based on feminism.
I must say it did make me laugh but aside from the humour value, it is actually insulting.
I have a 13yr old daughter who is stunning and is at that age where she is blossoming into a beautiful young lady. My passion for women in the Christian framework is because I'm raising two gorgeous daughters and also two sons who will take what my husband and I instil in them into their lives and Christian journeys.
Trying to find a balance in this crazy world is hard.
I teach personal responsibility and pride within themselves. Confidence and self worth.
Humility and accountability.
Never ever attached to guilt, or an expectation of others.

We never in our household use derogatory terms.
Against anyone.
Easy, slutty, hooker, loose, Bimbo, himbo whatever. And we never pass judgment on anyone based on what they choose to wear or question their character.

We don't have too.
A subtle kind approach has reaped all the benefits I would hope to achieve. With a balance that negates all necessity to ever lessen a persons worth by what they choose to wear.
My children have shown both a positive personal attitude to choice of clothing whilst at the same time never judging or accusing others.
This is actually particularly important when it comes to my 14yr old son.
He has never heard women in our circle, on TV, within family and friends ever judged on the basis of their clothing.
I have been with my hubby for 20 years and I have never heard him call women a hooker based on clothing or anything negative. Ever.

You don't need to teach slander and finger point to get a message across.
Calling women hookers for wearing their shirt to tight or their skirt too short, or a ****, I'm sorry I hate that word its nasty but it's used far too often, is just plain wrong.

Our young girls need self respect from a place of confidence and assurity in themselves not from a culture of shaming and degrading.

[B. W.]

No, BW. I don't think a man wearing a speedo or a woman wearing a bikini in church is wise.
Is this common practice in the US?. I watched Baywatch back in the day and I've never been to Malibu but I don't think this would occur. Maybe I've been attending the wrong churches, that's one way to boost attendance

As for common practice of dress in USA churches - you need to ask Rick, I heard about his church in Florida

I colder climates, No...

Why do woman become aroused?
Because we're human.
Can we control it, absolutely.
Just as many men walk around with tight slacks and shirts that flaunt their bodies as woman.
My original post was not addressing the moral issue of dress per say, but why the onus is placed on women.
We are made to be the 'sinful' factor. With phrases like 'dressing like a hooker'.
Our morality is questioned and by that our Christianty on our attire. The double standard is crappy.
With outrageous comments from Swordfish like 'you must have attended a women's study course' based on feminism.
I must say it did make me laugh but aside from the humour value, it is actually insulting.
I have a 13yr old daughter who is stunning and is at that age where she is blossoming into a beautiful young lady. My passion for women in the Christian framework is because I'm raising two gorgeous daughters and also two sons who will take what my husband and I instil in them into their lives and Christian journeys.
Trying to find a balance in this crazy world is hard.
I teach personal responsibility and pride within themselves. Confidence and self worth.
Humility and accountability.
Never ever attached to guilt, or an expectation of others.

We never in our household use derogatory terms.
Against anyone.
Easy, slutty, hooker, loose, Bimbo, himbo whatever. And we never pass judgment on anyone based on what they choose to wear or question their character.

We don't have too.
A subtle kind approach has reaped all the benefits I would hope to achieve. With a balance that negates all necessity to ever lessen a persons worth by what they choose to wear.
My children have shown both a positive personal attitude to choice of clothing whilst at the same time never judging or accusing others.
This is actually particularly important when it comes to my 14yr old son.
He has never heard women in our circle, on TV, within family and friends ever judged on the basis of their clothing.
I have been with my hubby for 20 years and I have never heard him call women a hooker based on clothing or anything negative. Ever.

You don't need to teach slander and finger point to get a message across.
Calling women hookers for wearing their shirt to tight or their skirt too short, or a ****, I'm sorry I hate that word its nasty but it's used far too often, is just plain wrong.

Our young girls need self respect from a place of confidence and assurity in themselves not from a culture shaming and degrading.

You have it correct, were are human and that sin nature thing causes the problems based upon sight attraction that both sexes have. Since that is so, best to dress modestly and not let it all hang out.

Also, I do not call women or men who dress skimpy whores, hookers, gigolos and most ministers here in the USA do not either. But dressing like these actually encourages the sin nature to come forth so it does need to be addressed.

The glorification of youth and sexuality in our countries is a big problem. Young girls and guys see the models, social media, movies, and TV shows of what is appealing in body shape, tone, facial features, attitudes, etc... All kinds of problems happen as you well know Mel.

People are conditioned to pretend they do not notice to be cool or whatever, but porn addiction is on the rise for both women and men because of the pretending they don't notice.

Anyone who claims they do not notice skimpy clad attractive member of the opposite sex, well, is actually not telling the truth due to social stigma to prove oneself above such things. So folks go underground and take a peak... get hooked on looking at porn... and things spin out of control as the years pass unless they get help.

It is now an act of social stigma to prove you don't notice the bodies of sexually provocatively dressed members of the opposite sex. it does not matter, people notice each other as they cannot help it. Porn addiction is epidemic in our countries for a reason.

Mel, folks are drifting away from the bible and God. The Bible is our guide book. It deals with issues such as this and teaches folks to walk in truth and deal with the drives one feels and the correct manner to resist temptations. The world is drifting away from the word of God and settling for the rule of social stigma to govern as law in order to make a Utopian society. Bible is true, by the works of the law, no flesh is justified.

You ought to try to teach/preach a sermon with a member of the opposite sex wearing nice but revealing clothing on the front three rows. It is distracting, trust me, I know! So I trained myself as a minister recommended long ago to me to look at the back wall behind the back row and not the audience. Any minister of any stripe who says they cannot become distracted by how the opposite sex dresses in sexually revealing attire in the audience is not telling the truth! Especially when reading and teaching on Gal 5:16-26
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[melanie]

In fairness BW I didn't suggest you personally addressed women as whores, hookers ect. I actually wouldn't think that of you but was addressing the issue more broadly I apologize if it came across that way.
In relation to addiction whether it be porn, drugs, gambling, alcohol ect the symtoms are not as telling as the underlining reasons. Interestingly addiction has a very broad cross over. One can stop one addictive behavior and switch to another.
Addictive behavior is a coping mechanism to deal with stress. When a person lacks the internal measures to deal with life they look for external release.
All studies have shown that the vast majority of adult addicts regardless of which form it rears its ugly head are dealing with childhood trauma.
Well whole people don't fill their lives with short term bandaid, destructive solutions.
My point being that if you are using porn addiction as an indication of loose morals I would point that finger closer to hurting people who are struggling to deal with life appropriately and use escapism to do so.

Sometimes really good people do bad things
They just need understanding and a kind ear to work through it.

As for needing to look to the back row to do a sermon because of revealing clothing I'm guessing they aren't naked and are clothed apart from some cleavage or leg showing???
That's life
My son plays football for a team where most boys are 17,18. They walk around with their shirts off. They are muscular and attractive. They should be they are young men.
I don't have to blush and pretend I don't see them and look elsewhere.
My husband plays footy for the older boys and some of them are fit and fine and openly take their shirts off after a game.
I'm not diverting my attention everywhere because I can't control myself.
Some of them have great bodies.
Half their luck, I'm totally into working out and keeping healthy.
Every display of flesh isn't an assault against Godly purity.
If I can't control my inner thoughts that's totally my issue and shouldn't be subjected onto anyone.

[B. W.]

In fairness BW I didn't suggest you personally addressed women as whores, hookers ect. I actually wouldn't think that of you but was addressing the issue more broadly I apologize if it came across that way.
In relation to addiction whether it be porn, drugs, gambling, alcohol ect the symtoms are not as telling as the underlining reasons. Interestingly addiction has a very broad cross over. One can stop one addictive behavior and switch to another.
Addictive behavior is a coping mechanism to deal with stress. When a person lacks the internal measures to deal with life they look for external release.
All studies have shown that the vast majority of adult addicts regardless of which form it rears its ugly head are dealing with childhood trauma.
Well whole people don't fill their lives with short term bandaid, destructive solutions.
My point being that if you are using porn addiction as an indication of loose morals I would point that finger closer to hurting people who are struggling to deal with life appropriately and use escapism to do so.

Sometimes really good people do bad things
They just need understanding and a kind ear to work through it.

As for needing to look to the back row to do a sermon because of revealing clothing I'm guessing they aren't naked and are clothed apart from some cleavage or leg showing???
That's life
My son plays football for a team where most boys are 17,18. They walk around with their shirts off. They are muscular and attractive. They should be they are young men.
I don't have to blush and pretend I don't see them and look elsewhere.
My husband plays footy for the older boys and some of them are fit and fine and openly take their shirts off after a game.
I'm not diverting my attention everywhere because I can't control myself.
Some of them have great bodies.
Half their luck, I'm totally into working out and keeping healthy.
Every display of flesh isn't an assault against Godly purity.
If I can't control my inner thoughts that's totally my issue and shouldn't be subjected onto anyone.

Oh no Mel, never thought you were speaking to me about this. I do know what you mean as run across from time to time the rare person who does. No offense on my part taken.

The Holy Spirit helps our weaknesses and directs us in self control. So we are not powerless because we can choose not to give into the lust of the flesh and empowered by the Lord to not be controlled by it. We learn to walk by the Spirit as the bible says and we do well!

I work out too but age creeps up on us humans you know! My wife and I like to hike the Rocky Mountains near where we live too. Staying in shape is a good thing to do no matter the age. So hats of to you on that and keep it up because a saggy bottom is uncomfortable to sit on

Blessings!
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[RickD]

melanie wrote:
No, BW. I don't think a man wearing a speedo or a woman wearing a bikini in church is wise.
Is this common practice in the US?. I watched Baywatch back in the day and I've never been to Malibu but I don't think this would occur. Maybe I've been attending the wrong churches, that's one way to boost attendance

B. W. wrote:
As for common practice of dress in USA churches - you need to ask Rick, I heard about his church in Florida

No speedos and bikinis at churches around here. This area of Florida is only nudist churches. It's a fairly new concept they're trying out. It seems to be going well. And nobody seems distracted by sermons or worship services. It's mostly appreciating God's beautiful creations.

[swordfish7]

Just as many men walk around with tight slacks and shirts that flaunt their bodies as woman.

The visual stimulation in men is much more pronounced compared to women. You can see this in advertising where they use sex to sell to men. Feminism tries to erase the differences in the sexes.

My original post was not addressing the moral issue of dress per say, but why the onus is placed on women.
We are made to be the 'sinful' factor. With phrases like 'dressing like a hooker'.
Our morality is questioned and by that our Christianty on our attire. The double standard is crappy.

One of my points is that we need to use scripture as the basis of how we live our lives. It is the inspired word of God (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21; Ps. 119:11; Col. 3:16; Tit. 1:9; Ps. 119:47; Jer. 23:29). Letting our cultures morals (the world) dictate how we live is offensive to God (1 John 2:15; Jam. 4:4; Tit. 2:12; Col. 3:2; Rom. 12:2; Luke 21:34; Mat. 16:26; Is. 2:6; Deut. 12:30). The "'sinful' factor" runs both ways as I have said before. Men sin by lusting and are held accountable, and women can sin by dressing provocatively to entice men. The reverse can happen too, but the predominant problem is the one addressed by scripture in 1 Pet. 3:3 - men lusting and women enticing. One must understand the cultural context of the time, where the pagan religious culture had temple prostitutes with braided hair, much gold jewelry and sensuous dress. So what Paul is saying is that the women should not dress in like manner to even give an appearance of sexual promiscuity and to be modest. In laymen's terms, part of the translation could be to not dress like a hooker. So if you are offended by my statement, you are offended by Paul's statement, which is the word of God.

With outrageous comments from Swordfish like 'you must have attended a women's study course' based on feminism.
I must say it did make me laugh but aside from the humour value, it is actually insulting.
I have a 13yr old daughter who is stunning and is at that age where she is blossoming into a beautiful young lady. My passion for women in the Christian framework is because I'm raising two gorgeous daughters and also two sons who will take what my husband and I instil in them into their lives and Christian journeys.

The ideas that you put forward are like the feministic ideas put forward in colleges which are antithetical to the word of God. The Christian ideal is a woman who follows her husband's lead in a gracious and submissive manner, where the husband is loving, kind and a servant leader like Christ. In proper balance it reflects the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph. 5:22-33). Of course in this fallen world the men are not perfect as well as the women, so we must show much grace to our spouses! Feminism is hostile to the Christian ideal, so yes, I don't like it.

Trying to find a balance in this crazy world is hard.
I teach personal responsibility and pride within themselves. Confidence and self worth.
Humility and accountability.
Never ever attached to guilt, or an expectation of others.

I too have children about your kids age and I attempt to instill in them God's standards which includes a healthy fear of the Lord (Luke 1:50; Prov. 1:7; Ps. 147:11; Mat. 10:28; Deut. 13:4; Jer. 2:19; Ec. 12:13). If my kids sin against God, I do hope they have guilt and turn from their wicked ways.

We never in our household use derogatory terms.
Against anyone.
Easy, slutty, hooker, loose, Bimbo, himbo whatever. And we never pass judgment on anyone based on what they choose to wear or question their character.

You attribute to me something I never said. It is not appropriate to go around calling people sluts, whores, hooker, gigolo etc. This is unkind and does not edify and brings shame to Christ. What is appropriate is to teach our daughters and the women in the church (and men too), to be modest in dress not giving the appearance of any sexual immorality (1 Tim. 2:9,10; Eph. 5:3). Telling them to not dress like a "whore" or "gigolo" in a general sense is appropriate. Going up to an individual in the church and calling them a "whore" or other such name would not be appropriate. Now a godly women may take her daughter or women she is mentoring aside and teach her what is appropriate dress and what isn't. This is commendable and honors God.

We don't have too.

A subtle kind approach has reaped all the benefits I would hope to achieve. With a balance that negates all necessity to ever lessen a persons worth by what they choose to wear.
My children have shown both a positive personal attitude to choice of clothing whilst at the same time never judging or accusing others.
This is actually particularly important when it comes to my 14yr old son.
He has never heard women in our circle, on TV, within family and friends ever judged on the basis of their clothing.

Getting upset about the latest fad is not what I do. I probably am very similar to you but I do teach modesty of dress especially to my daughter. We need to make moral judgments to discern how to live to please God (1 Cor. 2:14-16; Heb. 5:12-14).

I have been with my hubby for 20 years and I have never heard him call women a hooker based on clothing or anything negative. Ever.

Again, you distort what I say. The goal isn't name calling: the goal is to teach our daughters modesty and discretion in dress as scripture teaches (Is. 3:16-24; 1 Pet. 3:3,4; 1 Tim. 2:9). I don't think I have ever called a woman a whore by her dress.

You don't need to teach slander and finger point to get a message across.
Calling women hookers for wearing their shirt to tight or their skirt too short, or a ****, I'm sorry I hate that word its nasty but it's used far too often, is just plain wrong.

Teaching our daughters modesty is appropriate. But finger waving calling women whores is not, though your daughter does need to know what is a whore and their inappropriate dress.

Our young girls need self respect from a place of confidence and assurity in themselves not from a culture of shaming and degrading.

We should not use the world standards. Their assurance needs to be in Christ, not in themselves (1 Cor. 3:12)! The shaming is more in relation to church discipline and those in the church living lives in direct conflict with the word, without confession of the heart (1 Cor. 5:9-13).