B. W. wrote:And yes Jesus claimed he is God in the bible, by the titles Son of Man and Son of God...
As well as in: John 20:28, John 5:23, John 9:35-38, John 14:9
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Why are all of them from the Gospel of John??
How does John 5:19-24 confirm that Jesus is God?
19 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
What is with the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son? They have the same nature, they both are able to judge, they are both God, are they not? So, how come judgment is "reserved" to the Son?
B. W. wrote:IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?
Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
We went thru this before. God is incomprehensible to us. His Spiritual essence we cannot fully fathom.
Romans 1:20 reveals something. One can begin to gain insight into God's Nature by the triunity of things on earth. I have used the weak example of an orange on this forum before. You have a distinct pealing, a distinct fruit, and distinct juice of one orange. Each is 100 percent all orange and all share the same essence, attributes, and function of being orange. The three make it an orange, one orange. These are not parts of the orange but rather all one orange. We like to dissect it and make it into parts but the reality is it is all 100 percent all one orange and our dissection cannot disprove that it is not all one orange either.
The pealing holds together and protects, the fruit makes seed, and the juice establishes life for the orange. God is more than able to send his fruit into the this world to grow his will for our lives and also more than able to establish this life by sending forth his juice to keep things fresh. As weak as this example is, I hope you may gain understanding and stop trying to disprove God and simply accepting what Jesus Christ did for you Romans 1:16 and Romans 10:8,9,10,11,12,13
You need a little zest in your life, some fruit to grow by, and juice to revive you... Why the delay Ice?
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Romans 1:20 reveal what exactly? You mean like there being named 3 things (invisible attributes, eternal power, divine nature) it points to a Triune God? Lol.
God is incomprehensible to us yet I see everyone talking of Him in a very leisure way as if He is their neighbour and they know everything about Him. But let's put that aside.
I've read your comparison once before and I didn't react to it because the comparison is incorrect. Not all parts of the orange share the same essence, attributes and function. It is simply not true. Furthermore, your comparison reduces and splits God into parts which is also incorrect.
Moreover, you conclude with: " but the reality is it is all 100 percent all one orange and our dissection cannot disprove that it is not all one orange either"
Well, of course it is one orange, but it has parts which serve different functions and which consists of different material and each of those parts of the orange (you named 3 of them) have different attributes.
Yeah, just now I've read that you said this example is weak. Well, I'll not accept something which is illogical to my thinking (HS being even worse than Jesus, though).
The zest, fruit and juice is there. In God. You do realize you could have put some 4th thing and, following your logic (well, not logic but thinking with which you tried to persuade me or explain it to me), it would be Fourthune God?
Reminds me of the: "Nice tryyyy, guyyyyyy."
https://youtu.be/OelHPDBSiJg?t=1m43s
The delay is there up until I am certain God equals Trinity.
Jac3510 wrote:Jesus prayed to the Father because He is not the Father. The Father is the Father and the Son is the Son. The Son loves and wishes to be in communion with the Father, and so He prays to Him. Moreover, Jesus is a man, and so while He is ontologically equal with the Father and Holy Spirit in virtue of His divine nature, He is inferior to both the Father and the Spirit in virtue of His human nature. When Jesus prayed, then, He was aligning His human will with the divine will, so that He could say He does nothing He does not see the Father do and so that everything He did, He did at the direction of the Father.
Hmmm, aligning of the will makes sense. I do not see how that is connected to Jesus not doing anything He does not see the Father do and that everything Jesus did, He did at the direction of the Father.
Could you elaborate on this and give examples?
Jac3510 wrote:
The Holy Spirit played an essential part in the early ministry of Jesus Christ. The HS filled Jesus, empowered Him, led Him, etc. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus was filled with, by which He exemplified divine power in His ministry, that He gave to His disciples and to all believers. So while Jesus could have certainly have done anything He wanted in virtue of His own divine nature, He chose to act in virtue of His human nature and for the Holy Spirit to act in and through Him. The result of that is that we, who are not divine, receive and act through the same Spirit that acted through Him.
Heh, what is the Scriptural basis for that? Nowhere does it say that he let the HS empower him, even though the result kinda makes sense.
Storyteller wrote:The Holy Spirit is the breath of God in your soul. Its something felt. That moves you, drives you, compels you to seek truth.
It seems I haven't felt "the breath of God in my soul". Does it smell bad? (I had to.
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Is this considered blasphemy towards the HS?
In that case, I am on a highway to hell. (Matthew 12:31-32)
Tn tn tn tn tn tn
Kurieuo wrote:IceMobster wrote:If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God (which is supported by Scripture on various places)?
Why does Jesus not say that he is God anywhere in the Scripture?
Bonus question: I have no idea what Holy Spirit's role is in either the Trinity or the world, so explain. I see HS as utterly useless. Even though I know it is obviously not the teaching of the Trinity, I see HS as just a name for God's work in the world. So, yeah, give me your best concerning this 3 questions.
Let me put forward questions that abstract from the specifics of why or how.
Question 1) If God exists, then is it logically possible (i.e., there is nothing contradictory) for God to come down to Earth, be born and dwell amongst in human form?
Question 2) If one positively affirms (1), then
Who is keeping things running while God gives Himself over to human nature and visits Earth in human form?
Except there is a fallacy here. This implies that God isn't omnipotent since He could not both be 100% human & 100% God whilst "keep running the universe" or "holding the helm" as you state later.
Kurieuo wrote:
Now, to the first, it seems easy to answer that God could enter into His creation however God liked. God created it all, so evidently has immense power, so why not? The onus, it seems to me, is on an opposing position to bring forward good reasons why God could not ever enter into His creation in the form of a human baby who then grows into a man.
Given (1) is possible, now then, the universe still needs to keep running and be held together. Does God leave the helm of running our universe? Is such even possible of God to do? Really, I think if God were to leave the helm, then our whole world and created order would collapse in on itself. Since everything is absolutely dependent upon God. Therefore, God, if He comes in human form must somehow subsist in both human and divine forms.
Let's say you somehow do not deny God's omnipotence by saying this.
So, what do you think God is actually doing "being at the helm"? With what actions is He holding everything together? By just existing or being Existence itself is a poor answer.
But you do understand that you are negating Jesus being a part of the Godhead with your last sentence here (and omnipotence as stated earlier).
Kurieuo wrote:
I believe these two questions push one to entertain at least a duality in God of some sort, whether such be essential to God's nature or something God's creates within Himself. So then, how does the communion between such work, well, let theologians discuss and nut out.
Fine. Why a 3rd persona out of the blue then?
Kurieuo wrote:
Finally, there are questions to do with "Love" that I see add weight to the picture of God as revealed in Scripture and by Christ. That is, does "Love" really exist? If it does, then what is the source of "Love"? Now, many people will affirm love really does exist. And, if one believes in God, they'll readily claim God is love, meaning God is the source of all love. Yet, then without creation, can God really still love if there is no one to love?
I believe one can only legitimately respond "Yes" to this question (that God is love), provided they recognise that "true love" can only be had in relationship from one to another and account for such within God. Therefore, if God is love then God must necessarily be relational within who God is.
To have perfect love, one could say there needs to be 1) The Lover, 2) Beloved and 3) Carrier (of the love). And then, to be perfect, the Lover ought to also be loved by the Beloved, and indeed a pouring out upon the Carrier of such and vice-versa. Thus, Love becomes complete and perfect.
Now remove 1) The Lover, and you no longer can have the beloved and there is also no need for any "love" to be carried from Loved to Beloved. Remove 2) The Beloved, and now The Lover can't exist either for their needs to be a recipient of The Lover's love. Remove 3) And the love of the Lover will never reach the Beloved, indeed one must wonder what even this "love" is comprised of which is exchanged between The Lover and The Beloved if consists of nothing but "empty packets of data" and not even a packet.
Indeed that the love is best recognized in a relationship, but what of the love one has for himself?
Also, "Carrier" is a surplus here. The Lover is the one carrying, expressing, "beloving" the Beloved one (with love). Perhaps if the 3rd persona here is a result of the first two's love, but that makes no sense as that is not what the HS is acknowledge to be.
Philip wrote:Just a suggestion - and its one I myself need to adhere more to - but when someone asks a relatively straight forward question, let's try to not bury him in words of a million paragraphs and technical verbiage. I think ICE's head must be swimming about right now.
As we are mortal and as also God is not fully comprehendible to us, His Trinity of persons within ONE God is not an easy thing to grasp. But it is verified comprehensively across Scripture!
Thanks for support, however, I do not have a problem reading topics that interest me and God indeed interests me.
OH, and yes, I would like to hear as much technical verbiage as possible!! Uh, I wish I was swimming right now. It is really hot here where I live.
Nicki wrote:To me it's Jesus' statement 'Before Abraham was born, I am!' that was his most obvious claim to divinity. I think the Holy Spirit could possibly not be a person, were it not for Jesus' teaching that when he left he would send the Comforter, who is spoken of as a person and seems to be the Holy Spirit. Jesus was saying that his presence in us would be via the Holy Spirit. The HS might seem to be unnecessary to us but if he's part of (or maybe I shouldn't say part, Jac? - included in then) the Triune God that's just the way it is - we won't necessarily understand everything about the roles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Is this the only verse(s) in which the HS is mentioned?
How do you differentiate HS's work from God's work?
As Melanie said, it looks more like the HS is a name for God's (mysterious) deeds/work in this world.
abelcainsbrother wrote:Jesus lived a sinless life,unlike we can and so he prayed.
Jehovah. For you. Get out a bible and follow along
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qT2wpjS7SU
John 8:58
Exodus 3:13-14
John 15:26
John 16:13-16
Sorry about my last reply to you. I was wrong.
Anyway, your first sentence implies only those who are sinless can pray, lol.
Exodus 3 does not confirm Jesus being God. Only God revealing Himself to the people.
John 8:58 is a good one. Missed that one, sorry. Thanks.
John 15:26 and John 16:13-16 is a good one concerning HS. Hmmmm.
Same question I asked BW, why are all these verses from John?
Why is (or is it? I didn't learn them by heart when I read them) there non of such in the synoptic Gospels?
abelcainsbrother wrote:I just didn't go into great depth trying to explain the trinity because it is hard for even Christians to understand it,even though the trinity is biblical.
Try me.
Don't you go Christians master race on me.
The Trinity is biblical. Where? What verses?
Hortator wrote:Philip wrote:Just a suggestion - and its one I myself need to adhere more to - but when someone asks a relatively straight forward question, let's try to not bury him in words of a million paragraphs and technical verbiage. I think ICE's head must be swimming about right now.
Not just his but mine as well
I mean, I understood what Jac said, but I could not repeat it even in my own words, if that makes sense.
I am yet to read Jac's second reply to this topic (I've read everything else). Don't have the time now, been doing this reply for some time.