Ken Ham vs Hugh Ross Young or Old earth debate on TBN

[abelcainsbrother]

Have you ever seen this debate with Ken Ham and Hugh Ross about 2 years ago on TBN? I thought Ken Ham was being rude to Hugh Ross and relied more on young earth dogma to make his case than the word of God.I thought Hugh Ross was the one using scripture to make his case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUHNz6bUSIU

[DanielPech]

When opposing each other, I do not see either man as knowing much more than their own dogma. I am mostly on the side of Ken Ham, in that my own position is Young Earth and Young Cosmos (no gaps there, either). But I find a number of Ross's teachings theologically spot-on, especially some of those of his teachings that concern the Earth as a living planet.

[Philip]

The biggest problem with Hugh Ross - and I really appreciate so much of what he's written AND as I believe in an old universe - is that he reads science into too many Bible passages, ones in which scientific meanings were not likely intended. This is because he's lacking in theological and ancient Hebrew training. That said, however, I do agree with Ross that God allowed man to discover, develop, and confirm the remarkably consistent and often highly reliable (yet imperfect) methodologies of the scientific method, and that even though these have limitations, we shouldn't ignore its strong correlations as it pertains to the study of God's Creation, as Scripture describes it as ANOTHER testimony.

I would think that the intensive and vast studies of what God tells us is this other testimony would not greatly mislead us when such an enormous amount of data from so many different fields of scientific disciplines comprehensively correlate on so many levels. As if the Creation is a testimony, why would it at least APPEAR misleading, even if it wasn't meant to, to so many of the world's scientists sincerely and diligently seeking to understand its many truths and mysteries? God gave us this long-validated methodology of sifting data, are we to ignore its conclusions - ESPECIALLY where they MASSIVELY correlate? I believe that many who so easily and casually dismiss the overwhelming conclusions of science concerning the age of the earth are ignorant of the immense data from so many scientific fields that have provided an overwhelming consensus that the earth and universe are in the billions of years in age. BTW, I also reject macro-evolutionary evolution between species. But you also can't read the Bible as a science book, even though some of it may well yield some scientific understandings. And so many who insist that certain key passages of the Bible ARE speaking of science, as they insist upon a CERTAIN supposed theological SCIENCE views, would definitely be wrong if such passages were not meant to address scientific understandings to a pre-scientific age people (which is HIGHLY unlikely). Lastly, Scripture wasn't written ONLY for that pre-scientific world, but also for you and me, living in the scientific/technological age.

[JButler]

What I am finding interesting or puzzling is why do some people insist on forcing the Creation into 6 human days. What is the rush to cram the immense Creation when God operates outside of time? As I understand it eternity makes human marking of time totally irrelevant in the big picture.

Until recently I didn't have much of an opinion on creation theories and related topics. I've viewed a lot of videos with Dr. Hugh Ross and the debates with rude guys like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind. Ross's presentations are logically explained with backing from the Bible. But some people want to paint you as a heretic if you don't believe six human days, but I've found it just the opposite. I have so much more awe that timeless God designed and created such a complex enormous universe, and he did it in His own good "time". He could do everything instantly but doesn't so He let's His plan play out.

Every so often I go through the beautiful wondrous photos from the Hubble Space Telescope, just to keep reminding myself of how puny Earth and humans are and think it amazing that God has such an interest in us and Earth. So I ask again, why do some people want to put God into their little box of understanding in their tiny brains? My answer/opinion is these people cannot grasp that God is so far beyond their understanding, so they want to reduce God to a level they can understand.

[Stu]

What I am finding interesting or puzzling is why do some people insist on forcing the Creation into 6 human days. What is the rush to cram the immense Creation when God operates outside of time? As I understand it eternity makes human marking of time totally irrelevant in the big picture.

Until recently I didn't have much of an opinion on creation theories and related topics. I've viewed a lot of videos with Dr. Hugh Ross and the debates with rude guys like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind. Ross's presentations are logically explained with backing from the Bible. But some people want to paint you as a heretic if you don't believe six human days, but I've found it just the opposite. I have so much more awe that timeless God designed and created such a complex enormous universe, and he did it in His own good "time". He could do everything instantly but doesn't so He let's His plan play out.

Every so often I go through the beautiful wondrous photos from the Hubble Space Telescope, just to keep reminding myself of how puny Earth and humans are and think it amazing that God has such an interest in us and Earth. So I ask again, why do some people want to put God into their little box of understanding in their tiny brains? My answer/opinion is these people cannot grasp that God is so far beyond their understanding, so they want to reduce God to a level they can understand.

Just as you say that why couldn't have God created the world in a long period of time, I could just as easily say why couldn't God have created the world in 6 literal days. He could've done either. We don't know God's mind and what He was thinking.

[abelcainsbrother]

What I am finding interesting or puzzling is why do some people insist on forcing the Creation into 6 human days. What is the rush to cram the immense Creation when God operates outside of time? As I understand it eternity makes human marking of time totally irrelevant in the big picture.

Until recently I didn't have much of an opinion on creation theories and related topics. I've viewed a lot of videos with Dr. Hugh Ross and the debates with rude guys like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind. Ross's presentations are logically explained with backing from the Bible. But some people want to paint you as a heretic if you don't believe six human days, but I've found it just the opposite. I have so much more awe that timeless God designed and created such a complex enormous universe, and he did it in His own good "time". He could do everything instantly but doesn't so He let's His plan play out.

Every so often I go through the beautiful wondrous photos from the Hubble Space Telescope, just to keep reminding myself of how puny Earth and humans are and think it amazing that God has such an interest in us and Earth. So I ask again, why do some people want to put God into their little box of understanding in their tiny brains? My answer/opinion is these people cannot grasp that God is so far beyond their understanding, so they want to reduce God to a level they can understand.

It is because they believe their interpretation is true and so they have to cram all of the evidence into that interpretation and it just does'nt really work but their interpretation comes before everything else.The problem is when they judge and condemn other Christians because they have a different understanding than they do and prop up their creation interpretation to be equivalent to the gospel when it is not a salvation issue.

But it gets worse than this because certian ministries have used out right lies and deception in order to prop up their interpretation over rival interpretations.It is not pleasing to God and despite their efforts to decieve the truth will always win out in the end.It rises to the top eventually and then it backfires on them.Our goal as Christians should be to get to the truth of God's word not some ministry's interpretation and we can't do this properly when people are so closed based on their dogmatic interpretation.

I think that if Christians cannot truthfully and honestly explain why they think their interpretation is true and a different one is wrong then they should not teach about a different interpretation and they should just stick with their interpretation and teach it.

[JButler]

It is because they believe their interpretation is true and so they have to cram all of the evidence into that interpretation and it just does'nt really work but their interpretation comes before everything else.

Go where the evidence leads you. That was the axiom for criminal investigations especially homicides with no witnesses. So many times we had to check the detectives from making the evidence fit their theories. Even myself I had to occasionally remind myself of that. But if we let the evidence speak and guide the investigation it all came together and made sense. But if a stubborn detective who was totally unqualified in forensics got off on an theory trail, let's just say it made a mess and caused problems.

Long before I ever heard of Hugh Ross or any others who discuss creation issues, it seemed clear to me that Planet Earth had gone through a long series of changes to prepare it for human use. All the metals, gems, oil, coal and gas deposits so immense I find it hard to grasp. Think about all the earth resources that've been used and we're not close to exhausting it. I'm not suggesting reckless use of resources since I strongly believe we must be good stewards of Planet Earth. With utilization of each resource civilization jumped up a notch, sometimes not for the better. Like a plan or puzzle and the pieces are falling into place.

[abelcainsbrother]

It is because they believe their interpretation is true and so they have to cram all of the evidence into that interpretation and it just does'nt really work but their interpretation comes before everything else.

Go where the evidence leads you. That was the axiom for criminal investigations especially homicides with no witnesses. So many times we had to check the detectives from making the evidence fit their theories. Even myself I had to occasionally remind myself of that. But if we let the evidence speak and guide the investigation it all came together and made sense. But if a stubborn detective who was totally unqualified in forensics got off on an theory trail, let's just say it made a mess and caused problems.

Long before I ever heard of Hugh Ross or any others who discuss creation issues, it seemed clear to me that Planet Earth had gone through a long series of changes to prepare it for human use. All the metals, gems, oil, coal and gas deposits so immense I find it hard to grasp. Think about all the earth resources that've been used and we're not close to exhausting it. I'm not suggesting reckless use of resources since I strongly believe we must be good stewards of Planet Earth. With utilization of each resource civilization jumped up a notch, sometimes not for the better. Like a plan or puzzle and the pieces are falling into place.

Yeah,I tend to agree about detective work and investigations and I try to go by the interpretation first and then look to find evidence to support it or not.If I find evidence then it lets me know I'm headed in the right direction. But it actually took me longer than it should have to come to the conclusion I have because of so much false info out there about what I wanted to know about.I had to wade through a bunch of nonsense and keep searching until I finally found what makes the most sense to me.But I have looked back and now can see how it has actually enhanced my bible knowledge than it ever was before just because of verifying and making sure stuff was true or not.I learned alot just from it.And now it is so much better for me to have an interpretation to where the evidence for it just fits the best to me.

But it was a real eye-opener for me when I realized just how much evidence has to be crammed into the young earth interpretation in order to make it work.And in my case the timing of everything was just right for my research because I had been debating with evolutionists for a long time and this is how I gained scientific knowledge from reading the links they would give me so that by the time I had a good understanding of this interpretation it was alot easier to see how the evidence fits into it and it only made this interpretation even more true once I could see how the evidence fits into it.But now it makes much more sense for the earth to be old and just from the perspective of the fact that God is eternal and so billions of years is nothing compared to eternity and now it just does'nt make sense that God would sit around for eternity until just about 6000 years ago.

[melanie]

What I am finding interesting or puzzling is why do some people insist on forcing the Creation into 6 human days. What is the rush to cram the immense Creation when God operates outside of time? As I understand it eternity makes human marking of time totally irrelevant in the big picture.

Until recently I didn't have much of an opinion on creation theories and related topics. I've viewed a lot of videos with Dr. Hugh Ross and the debates with rude guys like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind. Ross's presentations are logically explained with backing from the Bible. But some people want to paint you as a heretic if you don't believe six human days, but I've found it just the opposite. I have so much more awe that timeless God designed and created such a complex enormous universe, and he did it in His own good "time". He could do everything instantly but doesn't so He let's His plan play out.

Every so often I go through the beautiful wondrous photos from the Hubble Space Telescope, just to keep reminding myself of how puny Earth and humans are and think it amazing that God has such an interest in us and Earth. So I ask again, why do some people want to put God into their little box of understanding in their tiny brains? My answer/opinion is these people cannot grasp that God is so far beyond their understanding, so they want to reduce God to a level they can understand.

I guess it's really all we have to work with. Our own limited perspective
But by golly we'll ridicule, divide and take an egocentric stand when it comes to clumsily pushing our own stance. But it's conjecture.
Here's the choice of creation stances..... Pick one
The idea of the spiritual realm being outside of time is a concept backed by scripture and anecdotal evidence. Whilst the language speaks of time from a human understanding, it's being orchestrated by an entity which has no adherence to that limitation. Further more the spiritual realm is not governed by the physics of this world.
Time is not linear nor structural, to debate its significance in regards to creation is putting a human constraint to the entire concept.
Language does its best to re-create but with limitation. It can only work within its constraints....

[thatkidakayoungguy]

I agreed with some of both. I don't like how some YECs like Ham basically say, whether intentionally or not, that u have to be a YEC to be a good Christian, or that the bible only works in a YEC view. Most in my church think the bible only works with YEC and it makes me mad to see deep time being called evolution.

[PaulSacramento]

One wonders sometimes what would happen if all the bibles in the world were to disappear, what would happen to people's faith then?
Mine would be untouched.

[melanie]

Great point Paul....
Likewise.... As much as scripture has fed my soul and enriched my spirit, my faith is in a living God. My spirituality is in my daily walk. He taps me on the shoulder everyday.... My lessons are learnt in the everyday.
The living word...

[Davy]

What I am finding interesting or puzzling is why do some people insist on forcing the Creation into 6 human days. What is the rush to cram the immense Creation when God operates outside of time? As I understand it eternity makes human marking of time totally irrelevant in the big picture.

Until recently I didn't have much of an opinion on creation theories and related topics. I've viewed a lot of videos with Dr. Hugh Ross and the debates with rude guys like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind. Ross's presentations are logically explained with backing from the Bible. But some people want to paint you as a heretic if you don't believe six human days, but I've found it just the opposite. I have so much more awe that timeless God designed and created such a complex enormous universe, and he did it in His own good "time". He could do everything instantly but doesn't so He let's His plan play out.

Every so often I go through the beautiful wondrous photos from the Hubble Space Telescope, just to keep reminding myself of how puny Earth and humans are and think it amazing that God has such an interest in us and Earth. So I ask again, why do some people want to put God into their little box of understanding in their tiny brains? My answer/opinion is these people cannot grasp that God is so far beyond their understanding, so they want to reduce God to a level they can understand.

Just as you say that why couldn't have God created the world in a long period of time, I could just as easily say why couldn't God have created the world in 6 literal days. He could've done either. We don't know God's mind and what He was thinking.

So that means, why couldn't our Heavenly Father have created His creation in just 'one day'? Just as valid an argument if one sees that Genesis 1:1 as the original creation.