The biblical flood date

[abelcainsbrother]

Nor do I, Audie. You took it a lot deeper than I intended (particularly insofar as you are challenging his premises). I'm just trying to suggest that his own argument, taken on its own merits, is really unwarranted. ACB wants to tie the "stickiness" of ice to the climate, so he needs to be able to tell me 1) at what temperature ice "sticks" and 2) what evidence he has that the global climate dropped to those temperatures at that time. Frankly, I doubt he can do either. So he'll be left with the claim that the ice "sticks" to the bottom of the ocean during the flood, and then when the water goes away, suddenly it warms up enough or the ice to "unstick" and start moving again, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. So you're posting fine defeaters for his position, and I'm sure your correct. But I'm working off a simpler premise, one that I can immediately grasp: quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur. Then when you point out, to your last little detail, the global cooling necessity for all glaciers to stick--not just to form, but to actually hit that "sticky" number--and the whole idea gets even more absurd.

Jac I never intended to get technical about this and made that clear. I was just trying to have a scientific discussion about this. I have researched this stuff but its not something I dwell on all the time. I've had discussions about this before and I've seen measurements taken in the bore holes that showed a negative 9 degrees C which shows the glacier is frozen solidly to the bedrock at the bottom,but I 've seen other measurements taken at different times that shows the ice at the bottom is not solidly frozen down to the bedrock.I was not being technical but was just trying to have a discussion about it. I might try to lay out a more technical scientific model sometime,not only with scripture but science also.

Which is what I thought. You have no evidence whatsoever. You're just making crap up, as usual. So I dismiss your ridiculous claims and unsubstantiated, as usual.

I don't just make up stuff and I could careless what you think about me. God knows the truth about me and you.

[Jac3510]

I expect you probably could care less about me (I don't have any interest in correcting THAT grammar whoopsi) -- I'd only be hurt if you could not care less about me. But then, I probably wouldn't be hurt, because that would imply that I could not care less about what you care about my caring about.

And I have no doubt that God knows the truth about you and the intellectual dishonest you live in every single day. You would do well to meditate on Job 42:7.

[crochet1949]

A comment -- for many years people from all over the world have come to the United States to get educated at our various research hospitals / universities and go back to their home countries to care for their own people. One particular person has come from HC and graduated from Berkeley - not to go back To HC, but to get the best education available and land get a really good job in NYC.

It's not intellectual dishonesty -- but beliefs held by lots of people simply because that's how they choose To believe.

It's Because higher education debunks anything related to God's Word / Bible. Higher education embraces evolution / Old earth concepts -- Really old earth -- because - in reality -- it easily takes God out of the picture -- no real need for Any 'god'. Much less one who creates anything like Bible tells us. And really -- Lots in the Bible / God's Word is NOT 'logical'. God is Trying to get our attention. Here is MY WORD -- Please take at least a Few moments To READ it. Actually LISTEN to what I AM saying to you. Before it is Eternally Too Late.

Intellectualism is saying that 'we' don't need anything other than our own brains -- Logic. "We" somehow managed to develop from a one-celled entity to become a full-blown, intellectual Man.

The glass is half Empty or half Full. It's the same amount of liquid. Perspective. The half Empty Could tell one person One thing and half Full could tell someone Else something different.

There is the world of fossils -- they Do exist, yes. But what are the 'experts' trying to Prove With them. Depends on what group is being talked to.

In one person's perspective -- that which is taking this country 'down' is our blatant ignoring of God's Word. And maybe not Ignoring it --but attacking it -- knowing what Is written and purposely doing Contrary to it. The attitude of 'I'll do what I want to with whomever is willing to do it With me or by myself' and I'll simply take the consequences -- we're becoming a 'Me" society. And THAT is dangerous.

Again -- it's not necessarily Ignorance -- It's acknowledging the information and choosing how I am going to act on it.

We see a persons' name with a degree and Assume they are smarter than We are. We are willing to take Their word and let them 'spoon feed us'. No one has All knowledge on Any subject. Everyone has the ability to research and agree or Disagree on the findings of others.

And, you're right -- there are some things that No one Likes to hear , but we need to hear it Anyway.

[crochet1949]

Job 42:7 "And so it was, after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends for you have not spoken of Me what is right, so My servant Job has."

Jac3510 how do you apply that verse to this. Just curious. I, think, maybe I get part, but your explanation would be good.

[crochet1949]

I expect you probably could care less about me (I don't have any interest in correcting THAT grammar whoopsi) -- I'd only be hurt if you could not care less about me. But then, I probably wouldn't be hurt, because that would imply that I could not care less about what you care about my caring about.

And I have no doubt that God knows the truth about you and the intellectual dishonest you live in every single day. You would do well to meditate on Job 42:7.

[abelcainsbrother]

I expect you probably could care less about me (I don't have any interest in correcting THAT grammar whoopsi) -- I'd only be hurt if you could not care less about me. But then, I probably wouldn't be hurt, because that would imply that I could not care less about what you care about my caring about.

And I have no doubt that God knows the truth about you and the intellectual dishonest you live in every single day. You would do well to meditate on Job 42:7.

You would do well to meditate on 1st John 4:20

[Jac3510]

Job 42:7 "And so it was, after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends for you have not spoken of Me what is right, so My servant Job has."

Jac3510 how do you apply that verse to this. Just curious. I, think, maybe I get part, but your explanation would be good.

ACB is not speaking what is right about God. That's a very weighty matter indeed.

You would do well to meditate on 1st John 4:20.

Quite right, which is why I correct you. Unfortunately, you consistently demonstrate Prov 12:15 and related passages. My part my do better to stick with Prov 23:9 more consistently, although passages like the one you just cited pop up in my mind from time to time.

[abelcainsbrother]

The moment people get nasty and accuse you of false things it shows that they have already lost the argument,cannot refute an argument,so the easy thing to do is get nasty and mean. I refuse to lower myself down to that level, I simply lay out the truth and facts as I understand it and from the research I have done and despite it being ignored I have already explained myself and have given far more evidence and reasons to back up what I've said about a world wide flood. I realize some don't believe in a world wide flood,but if you do? I have given enough evidence and reasons to back up a world wide flood,without getting technical.

[Jac3510]

I'll grant you haven't gotten nasty. But you haven't laid out any evidence for your positions either. Moreover, you haven't acknowledged or interacted with the arguments put forward against your "position" (in scare quotes because it isn't a position if it is baseless assertion). Hiding behind "not getting technical" doesn't qualify as a defense or a position. I could say, "Look, the moon is made of cheese, and I can prove it because of the climate. But I'm not interested in getting technical. I've made my case. I cited climate in the last sentence. 'Climate' is a word from science, so if you don't like my scientific argument, I can't help it if you reject truth. I'm just not interested in getting technical." I doubt you or anybody else would be impressed. And so it is with you on this discussion and pretty much every other one I've ever seen you engage in.

I'll further grant, going back to your previous point, that you could not care less what I think. And that is a large part of your problem. People who are highly educated are forever pointing out the flaws in your assertions, and you simply don't care. ACB has stated it, and thus it must be true. You think I'm arrogant for calling you out, sometimes bluntly. But the only really arrogant person here is you. Your hubris is quite literally, and I mean this with absolute sincerity, unmatched by ANYONE on this board. There is not even a close second. So, you're right about that for sure--you don't care what I or anyone else has to say. You don't discuss. You don't interact. You proclaim, obfuscate, and ignore, and I have no doubt that in your heart of hearts you truly believe what you are saying is true. Far from justifying you, ACB, that deep belief in the truth of what you are saying is the very thing that condemns you, because it shows thoroughness of your pride. It goes to the very core of your being. That is why I cited Job 42:7. It's not your words that are so bad. It's about the fact that they come out of who you are, out of your heart, and it reveals something of the hard-heartedness you've developed. I truly, meaningfully hope and pray that God softens that and that.

On a final note, and then I'll go back to broadly not addressing your assertions given the uselessness of that enterprise, I want to publicly acknowledge that by and large I'm addressing you, the poster, and not your posts as such. The reason is simple: there's no more use interacting with your assertions than there is arguing with someone who sincerely wants to say that 1+1=3. If I make that claim with a sincere heart, the problem is with me and not my argument. And that's why I've responded as I have.

I don't doubt your salvation. I absolutely consider you a brother in Christ, and I am praying for you as such.

[abelcainsbrother]

I'll grant you haven't gotten nasty. But you haven't laid out any evidence for your positions either. Moreover, you haven't acknowledged or interacted with the arguments put forward against your "position" (in scare quotes because it isn't a position if it is baseless assertion). Hiding behind "not getting technical" doesn't qualify as a defense or a position. I could say, "Look, the moon is made of cheese, and I can prove it because of the climate. But I'm not interested in getting technical. I've made my case. I cited climate in the last sentence. 'Climate' is a word from science, so if you don't like my scientific argument, I can't help it if you reject truth. I'm just not interested in getting technical." I doubt you or anybody else would be impressed. And so it is with you on this discussion and pretty much every other one I've ever seen you engage in.

I'll further grant, going back to your previous point, that you could not care less what I think. And that is a large part of your problem. People who are highly educated are forever pointing out the flaws in your assertions, and you simply don't care. ACB has stated it, and thus it must be true. You think I'm arrogant for calling you out, sometimes bluntly. But the only really arrogant person here is you. Your hubris is quite literally, and I mean this with absolute sincerity, unmatched by ANYONE on this board. There is not even a close second. So, you're right about that for sure--you don't care what I or anyone else has to say. You don't discuss. You don't interact. You proclaim, obfuscate, and ignore, and I have no doubt that in your heart of hearts you truly believe what you are saying is true. Far from justifying you, ACB, that deep belief in the truth of what you are saying is the very thing that condemns you, because it shows thoroughness of your pride. It goes to the very core of your being. That is why I cited Job 42:7. It's not your words that are so bad. It's about the fact that they come out of who you are, out of your heart, and it reveals something of the hard-heartedness you've developed. I truly, meaningfully hope and pray that God softens that and that.

On a final note, and then I'll go back to broadly not addressing your assertions given the uselessness of that enterprise, I want to publicly acknowledge that by and large I'm addressing you, the poster, and not your posts as such. The reason is simple: there's no more use interacting with your assertions than there is arguing with someone who sincerely wants to say that 1+1=3. If I make that claim with a sincere heart, the problem is with me and not my argument. And that's why I've responded as I have.

I don't doubt your salvation, and I am praying for you, brother.

Jac how can you lie like that? I suggest you re-read through this thread when you say I haven't laid out any evidence.It is your hear that is hardened not mine. I would never act like you do when somebody disagrees with me.It is rare that I cannot back up what I believe and just because you disagree does not mean my heart has hardened,nor should you judge me.I don't make 1+1=3 arguments.You think I'm hiding just because I made it clear this is not a technical scientific model for a world wide flood,but just a scientific discussion about it. I did not intend to get technical which you are trying to get me to do. If you don't believe me about the bore hole measurements I can't help it,but I know what I have seen and researched.You also should stop being a stumbling block.Any time you want to take me on about something I've said? Do it,because so far every time you tried it,I backed myself up well.

[Jac3510]

Fine, I'm done. You can't demonstrate what I said any more clearly than you just did. And for the sake of the board, welcome to my permignore list. Foe'd. There, everybody, and added measure of peace!

[abelcainsbrother]

Fine, I'm done. You can't demonstrate what I said any more clearly than you just did. And for the sake of the board, welcome to my permignore list. Foe'd. There, everybody, and added measure of peace!

God bless you,Jac

[Audie]

Fine, I'm done. You can't demonstrate what I said any more clearly than you just did. And for the sake of the board, welcome to my permignore list. Foe'd. There, everybody, and added measure of peace!

Why didnt I think of that?

[B. W.]

Nor do I, Audie. You took it a lot deeper than I intended (particularly insofar as you are challenging his premises). I'm just trying to suggest that his own argument, taken on its own merits, is really unwarranted. ACB wants to tie the "stickiness" of ice to the climate, so he needs to be able to tell me 1) at what temperature ice "sticks" and 2) what evidence he has that the global climate dropped to those temperatures at that time. Frankly, I doubt he can do either. So he'll be left with the claim that the ice "sticks" to the bottom of the ocean during the flood, and then when the water goes away, suddenly it warms up enough or the ice to "unstick" and start moving again, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. So you're posting fine defeaters for his position, and I'm sure your correct. But I'm working off a simpler premise, one that I can immediately grasp: quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur. Then when you point out, to your last little detail, the global cooling necessity for all glaciers to stick--not just to form, but to actually hit that "sticky" number--and the whole idea gets even more absurd.

Jac I never intended to get technical about this and made that clear. I was just trying to have a scientific discussion about this. I have researched this stuff but its not something I dwell on all the time. I've had discussions about this before and I've seen measurements taken in the bore holes that showed a negative 9 degrees C which shows the glacier is frozen solidly to the bedrock at the bottom,but I 've seen other measurements taken at different times that shows the ice at the bottom is not solidly frozen down to the bedrock.I was not being technical but was just trying to have a discussion about it. I might try to lay out a more technical scientific model sometime,not only with scripture but science also.

Which is what I thought. You have no evidence whatsoever. You're just making crap up, as usual. So I dismiss your ridiculous claims and unsubstantiated, as usual.

I don't just make up stuff and I could careless what you think about me. God knows the truth about me and you.

Well reviewing this thread and I see Jac you are crossing the line.

Full Permanent Ban warning coming at you due to your derogatory tone to fellow members. You stirred the pot.

I am surprise that a person of of education and caliber and intellect can act like a barroom intellectual looking for a fist fight. I can't imagine WLC or CS Lewis acting and saying things like you have here.

We all get a little riled up from time to time but some of us calm down, repent, and become better through the ware and tear.

Jac, your word actions do not speak well of the manner of grace which you share on. Not a good example at all.
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[Nicki]

Fine, I'm done. You can't demonstrate what I said any more clearly than you just did. And for the sake of the board, welcome to my permignore list. Foe'd. There, everybody, and added measure of peace!

Not nice. I thought you believed in a world-wide flood, or is it just ACB's gap version you object to? Regardless, I think although he gets into discussions where he can't really back himself up properly it's not necessary to slam him like that, and though we might think the gap theory's silly it could possibly turn out to be God's wisdom which confounds the wise of this world.