Neo: Life didn't appear instantly Phil. Yes elements did when they fused in the big bang and later among stars. And for the idea of incredible precision, try the quantum level, at that place even the laws of physics get bent and crazy unpredictable things happen.
Unpredictable to WHOM???!!! Certainly not to God. But what you mostly see is phenomenal consistency, if with variations withing locked parameters.
Philip: And it is absurd to think God kick-started a universe He didn't precisely design and control the end results of - even IF He first created things that were designed to operate as programmed, and not with constant intervention.
Neo: Not at all, it just depends on how do you perceive God that he might or might not do. Really to me this constant trying on your side to insert God at interventions, really undermines God in my opinion. It makes him petty and really not a good planner at all. It shows that he didn't foresee enough so that he'd have to intervene later to fix things or add a touch here or there. Really that is what irks me. I do not see God as that at all.
Neo, you are speaking as if we are talking about a HUMAN planner, or one that must "do" constant maintenance. A God Who can speak a universe into existence does not need to worry about nuts, bolts and processes - as they are controlled by His spoken word - as for whatever the details require, per His desires and purposes. HOWEVER, you can bet that the universe that occurred is precisely what He desired, minus the sin. But allowing the sin was necessary for free will. But He planned for that as well. Again, your idea of "poor PLANNING" suggests formulation of responses to something He has UNanticipated. As God is all-knowing and all-powerful, those constraints do not shackle Him. There could never have been a moment He didn't know ALL of what HE would once day do, or ALL of what we would, or of any other thing or event.
Philip: Either God set a process in motion that He PLANNED for but ONE unique creature, amongst millions of others, whom He would communicate and interact with, and one day come to die for. OR, He created things that "just happened" to culminate in man. The Bible clearly asserts the former!
Neo: It also clearly asserts that everything was made in six days right there on page one of that same Bible, but obviously you don't accept it when it comes to that so not sure what you are doing...cherry picking I guess?
Neo, you well know that you should not take a literal interpretation of all of Scripture. But you choose to do so of the Creation accounts. You know the reasonable potential for their other possible meanings, and you know there are many Bible scholars who would agree that it is a mistake to assume a literal meaning of the time issue, OR that the relevant Creation passages are even speaking to things in a
scientific way. So, a pretty dumb thing to assert - or at least a very narrow way of viewing it.
Philip: Either God set a process in motion that He PLANNED for but ONE unique creature, amongst millions of others
Neo: Phil take a telescope sometimes and look out in the universe, to observe the vastness that exists out there is a humbling experience. This self-congratulatory notion of being the center of everything is strange to me.
Neo, first place, I am agnostic on whether or not God has created other beings in THIS universe. I am only speaking of the EARTH. God addressed Scripture to human beings living
on planet earth - THAT is the context I am referencing. And there is only once creature remotely like us on earth. And I DO believe there MIGHT be other life or beings elsewhere. It may be that they are so far away, that we will never encounter, know of, or even communicate with them - meaning that IF they exist, this is why Scripture doesn't reference it. But as God is the Author of THIS universe, how any others might exist, either independently or totally unconnected or that we are not related to (per a multiverse, etc.). Also, I most certainly do NOT take a limited view of God's creation! But man on earth, as a spiritual creature made by God, we most certainly are unique in how we reflect capabilities and characteristics of God. But as for limitations, God has NONE.
Let me go further, as I have before, on our uniqueness, or the earth. In addition to there MIGHT be other beings in our universe (or not), if we think of our universe as being but ONE "story" God has authored, how many more might there likely be? God is ETERNAL/has always existed. He doesn't change. He clearly delights in creating and restoring. He is always active - whether in the spiritual realm or in this one. Are we to think God didn't create before OUR universe began? WHY???!!! He may well have been creating other universes and stories, for eternity past? And why NOT? Do they still exist? Does He still have a purpose for them? Are they any OTHER dimensions and spiritual realms? Are we the ONLY beings in a physical realm? Who knows? Maybe? Maybe NOT! Nothing God might have done, of beauty, glory and wonder, would surprise me. But I sure don't think the Father, Son and Spirit sat around doing nothing for eternity past, all the while just dreaming about the day they would create their ultimate creation: MAN! How narcissistic are we to think THAT? Nonetheless, we most certainly are the zenith of His creations HERE - there is only one specie like us!
Neo: That was the same thing people thought when they thought that everything revolved around the earth precisely because they thought they were the one special creature.
See the above! Oh, and please inform me of ANY other creatures on EARTH as unique as man, with God-like qualities!
Neo: God made us here and here the Armageddon is happening and here the new Jerusalem is going to be, on this Earth, as you said, it clearly asserts everything is here...so why do you need 200 billion galaxies, trillions and trillions of uncountable stars and planets out there? what was God thinking when he made them?
I don't know what He was thinking. But that doesn't change the fact that MAN is the ultimate creature He created ON EARTH! Which is my reference. And that doesn't take away from untold galaxies or whatever else. It's just a fact. As for how many books/universes God has ALSO authored - as in how many "books" might be on God's bookcase, or as for how many BOOKCASES He has, no number would surprise me, because He is unlimited in ability as to what He can or has done, AND He's been the same God with the same characteristics, abilities, and sensibilities, for all of eternity past. That's a LONG (infinite amount of) "time!"
Neo: If god would have intervened, the universe would have looked really different because there would be form and function and purpose. If you look now the Andromeda galaxy is racing towards our milky way, it's on a collision course. Is that an oversight by God? Or that's part of the perfect plan, the incredible precision? Because his unique creature is going to be obliterated in what would ensue. I am not sure what kind of plan is that. I really don't.
God has purpose in whatever He creates. Scripture tells us that earth will not go on as it always has, but that there will be a merging of a New Heaven and restored earth. I really don't see why you seem to think God's "plan" doesn't know certain things or has flaws, or whatever. Either He is in control or not. Either you believe what Scripture says about the end of OUR time or not. God IS the science - that is, the science being how He has made things to work, for their purposes, for their specific times for which He made them.
Neo: Like Jac said earlier, you can't have it both ways. You want God to intervene but you also want and affirm automated processes happening just the same.
God's VOICE and will IS the automation, the adjusting, all-knowing, all-anticipating, the control - ALL of that is ONE with God! Asserting these are nuances of God "doing" things, though referenced as if God were a man, is silly. He is not! He also transcends and is not impacted by TIME. But He chooses to also interact with our world and us in REAL-time, while also knowing the end results.
Neo: So what is it? Is God a poor planner?...or I can say that he created the way any thinking wise being would create, automating things so that nature balances itself out so that everything has a start and end. E.g an earth that looks like a paradise but has devastating earthquakes and meteor impacts as well? Supernovas and birthing stars to black holes. A universe following the laws of physics on its own and shaping itself out of chaos into order and along the way we happened (God would obviously know about since he knows all). That is why there is so much out there, it has to be that way. Nothing else makes sense at all.
Neo, I'm not really sure from where you are coming at things. But I know you appear to not believe key parts of Scripture as they are written. Some of that appears to come from your literal reading of Genesis portions that were not necessarily meant to be taken so - or that may well not even have been addressing the SCIENTIFIC understandings of the Creation. If not, there's not much to say to you. You appear to believe in some type of unknown, scientific mysticism, in which God has set the clocks and just watches things develop, but not in a specific way. But anyone thinking that God hasn't total control over how things turn out, or that man is some quirk of time and chance - really, there is NO chance with God. Because that means He could be surprised. That would mean He could put into motion things He hasn't the ability to control, or doesn't desire to - both of which are totally contradicted by Scripture. So God maintaining control makes him a "poor planner?" How absurd!
