Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God

[PaulSacramento]

Doesn't matter. Whatever your motivation, one should always attempt to do the right thing.

Ken

And that IS the crux of the thing.

What we have is two views:

The end justifies the means.
The mean is what validates the end.

It actually DOES matter the motivation, the intention, it matters very, very much.

[PaulSacramento]

Or perhaps the non-believer has integrity; thus the desire to do the right thing even when nobody is looking

Why?

[Kenny]

Or perhaps the non-believer has integrity; thus the desire to do the right thing even when nobody is looking

Why?

Empathy.

K

[PaulSacramento]

Or perhaps the non-believer has integrity; thus the desire to do the right thing even when nobody is looking

Why?

Empathy.

K

Is that some psychic power of sorts?

[Kenny]

Or perhaps the non-believer has integrity; thus the desire to do the right thing even when nobody is looking

Why?

Empathy.

K

Is that some psychic power of sorts?

No, it's just the ability to understand what another person is going through.

Ken

[PaulSacramento]

Or perhaps the non-believer has integrity; thus the desire to do the right thing even when nobody is looking

Why?

Empathy.

K

Is that some psychic power of sorts?

No, it's just the ability to understand what another person is going through.

Ken

Sounds a bit out there, any scientific studies to back this up?

[Kenny]

Doesn't matter. Whatever your motivation, one should always attempt to do the right thing.

Ken

And that IS the crux of the thing.

What we have is two views:

The end justifies the means.
The mean is what validates the end.

It actually DOES matter the motivation, the intention, it matters very, very much.

Why? If someone is doing good, why is their motivation behind their good deeds so important to know?

Ken

[Kenny]

Why?

Empathy.

K

Is that some psychic power of sorts?

No, it's just the ability to understand what another person is going through.

Ken

Sounds a bit out there, any scientific studies to back this up?

If there are, I don't know of any. But why are scientific studies all of a sudden so important?

Ken

[RickD]

The strongest evidence for God's existence is the female person. On one hand, there's no way something so beautiful could happen by accident, without a loving creator. And on the other hand, there's no way something so nagging, could come about any other way, than by a God with a sick sense of humor!

[PaulSacramento]

Why? If someone is doing good, why is their motivation behind their good deeds so important to know?

Ken

And I guess we have reached the fork in the road and one of the differences between believers and non-believers.
See, it it those intentions that matter because it is those that truly count in the "long run".
No one will deny the difference between doing a good deed out of love and doing one for ulterior motives and while some will say "what differences does it make as long as good is being done" the truth is that WHy we do things is just as, if not more so, important as WHAT we do.

[Kenny]

Why? If someone is doing good, why is their motivation behind their good deeds so important to know?

Ken

And I guess we have reached the fork in the road and one of the differences between believers and non-believers.
See, it it those intentions that matter because it is those that truly count in the "long run".
No one will deny the difference between doing a good deed out of love and doing one for ulterior motives and while some will say "what differences does it make as long as good is being done" the truth is that WHy we do things is just as, if not more so, important as WHAT we do.

You make a good point, the motivation can matter to the person judging the good deed; a person doing right to please God vs a person doing the right thing for the betterment of mankind (the context of the point being made) which one is better I guess is a matter of who is doing the judging.

Ken

[PaulSacramento]

Why? If someone is doing good, why is their motivation behind their good deeds so important to know?

Ken

And I guess we have reached the fork in the road and one of the differences between believers and non-believers.
See, it it those intentions that matter because it is those that truly count in the "long run".
No one will deny the difference between doing a good deed out of love and doing one for ulterior motives and while some will say "what differences does it make as long as good is being done" the truth is that WHy we do things is just as, if not more so, important as WHAT we do.

You make a good point, the motivation can matter to the person judging the good deed; a person doing right to please God vs a person doing the right thing for the betterment of mankind (the context of the point being made) which one is better I guess is a matter of who is doing the judging.

Ken

Yes, and no.
I think your view is logical coming from the concept that a believer does good to please God and that, somehow ( or at least you seem to imply this) a non-believer does it simply for "goodness sake" or for the betterment of mankind.

See, we don't do good to please God, no more than we love to be loved.
We do good because God loves us and that love "drives" a desire to do good as an expression of love.
We love NOT TO BE loved BUT because we ARE loved.
It isn't a morally superior position either, though it can be argued as such since the doing of good for God seeks NOTHING in return whereas, it can be argued, to do good for mankind is to do good to reap a reward of sorts ( since we are part of mankind).

We can certainly want to please God, I know I do, BUT we don't want to please Him for some reward or so that we hold some "sway" over Him come the time of judgment ( since believers will not be judged) BUT because He loves Us and that Love drives us to be better, to do better. Not in so self-centred way ( we get something out of it eventually) but an other-centred way. Much like it is better to give than receive.

I think it kind of boils down to what this person said to me once:
We ( nonbeliever) do good because we know it is the right thing to do, BUT you guys do it because you are either afraid of God ( judgment) or want something from Him ( Salvation).
I assume you understand why he is 100% wrong, yes?

[abelcainsbrother]

Romans 2:12-15

[Audie]

Those who identify as non-believers, what do you see as the most powerful arguments for God's existence that you've seen? Second to that, what do you see as the least powerful arguments? Please be open and honest both ways.

The "uncaused cause" thing is pretty bad.

[Kurieuo]

Those who identify as non-believers, what do you see as the most powerful arguments for God's existence that you've seen? Second to that, what do you see as the least powerful arguments? Please be open and honest both ways.

The "uncaused cause" thing is pretty bad.

Yeah, I don't think it is bad, but have found it difficult explaining this logical argument to kids. That tells me it is unclear, and certainly the argument isn't clear to all (i.e., Atheists).

I've found better mileage with examples. We're their Mum and Dad, we have our Mum and Dad, they had their ancestors and on and on. But it didn't go on forever, did it? They're quick to jump to God as the starter. (good kids ) Though my son asked once what about God? (heretic! )

But, what I press them towards isn't an uncaused cause, but rather that something has always had to have existed without ever having a start itself. Otherwise there would be no one and nothing.

Whether one believes somehow that's a universe ensemble (which is quite clear to me is rather contingent), or better postulated as an intelligent powerful being (aka God) -- well we know people have different preferences.