Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[jpbg33]

Been working for a while but back for now.

I've been reading RickD comment about OSOS and can not help but comment on the fact that he himself says that he doesn't know if OSOS is true or not.

This is from RickD "some of these younger widows have turned away to follow Satan. We don't know if these widows were true believers or not. It is possible that their husbands had been believers while they were not.".

So they may have been saved!
So OSOS according to what you said there may be wrong.

Basically every time the Bible says someone is falling away you are assuming they were never saved,

An example

This is from RickD "Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 4:1 "that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."48 The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.".

Couldn't abandon something you never had.

We are not saved by works or because we prayed the sinners prayer but we are saved by Faith.

we are instructed in the Bible to keep the faith, which is referring to Christians. Sinners are not instructed to keep the Faith they don't have Faith.

I like a lot of what RickD says. You may not believe me but I do. I actually only disagree with the fact that you can't fall away. I do not believe that you backslide and fall away and backslide and fall away over and over, and I do not believe that Christians will live a perfect life. But I do believe they can. Will they or have they I do not know but the bible says God gives us the power to overcome. I believe that works are evidence of Faith not conditions of Faith.

[RickD]

Been working for a while but back for now.

I've been reading RickD comment about OSOS and can not help but comment on the fact that he himself says that he doesn't know if OSOS is true or not.

This is from RickD "some of these younger widows have turned away to follow Satan. We don't know if these widows were true believers or not. It is possible that their husbands had been believers while they were not.".

So they may have been saved!
So OSOS according to what you said there may be wrong.

Basically every time the Bible says someone is falling away you are assuming they were never saved,

An example

This is from RickD "Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 4:1 "that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."48 The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.".

Couldn't abandon something you never had.

We are not saved by works or because we prayed the sinners prayer but we are saved by Faith.

we are instructed in the Bible to keep the faith, which is referring to Christians. Sinners are not instructed to keep the Faith they don't have Faith.

I like a lot of what RickD says. You may not believe me but I do. I actually only disagree with the fact that you can't fall away. I do not believe that you backslide and fall away and backslide and fall away over and over, and I do not believe that Christians will live a perfect life. But I do believe they can. Will they or have they I do not know but the bible says God gives us the power to overcome. I believe that works are evidence of Faith not conditions of Faith.

If you are going to quote me, and my quote isn't immediately preceding your post, or if my quote is from another thread, you need to post the url for the thread my quote came from. Nobody has any idea what the context was that my quote came from.

Please add the url to where you got my quotes.

[jpbg33]

in this link RickD you said that SOSO may not be true. I am explaining this under this quote from you.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... iever.html this is the link

In that article you were just taking any verse that says you can fall away and explained them as talking about unbelievers falling away not true believers, but the Bible dose not talk about unbelievers falling away, because they were not following Jesus in the first place. When the Bible says that someone stopped following Jesus then It means what It said that someone that was following Jesus stopped following Him.

These are two of the verses in your article.

1 Timothy 4:1

Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 4:1 "that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.


1 Timothy 5:15

1 Timothy 5:15 says, "Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan." Who are these "some" who turned away? The context shows that the passage is referring to the treatment of widows. Paul gives the advice that the older widows are to be taken care of by the church. However, the younger widows are to remarry and raise a family as opposed to becoming "gossips and busybodies." So, some of these younger widows have turned away to follow Satan. We don't know if these widows were true believers or not. It is possible that their husbands had been believers while they were not.

You said that we do not know if those widows were true believers or not. Which would mean that you don't know if OSOS is right or not, because if OSOS was right then they could not be true believers.


You can not leave Faith if you do not have Faith in the first place. You either are Saved and have Faith or you are a sinner and have no Faith.

You are saying the Bible is talking about what we think has happened, and not what has happened. That is where you are wrong. The Bible says what It means and It was saying what has happened. The Bible said someone with Faith left there Faith and started following satan.

In the Bible Jesus instructed us to follow Him He didn't tell us to go get saved. Jesus said to fallow Him. That is what Christians do when they get saved. If they really get saved they take up there cross and follow Jesus. That was what Paul meant by saying follow me as I follow Christ and that is what we are doing as Christians. We are reading the Bible and learning how to follow Jesus by the examples Paul and the other writers of the Bible left for us to follow, which was all inspired of God.

That was what the verses were saying that some had turned away for following Jesus and started following satan.


this is as slim down as I can get it.

[RickD]

If you want me to respond, please fix the quotes, post the url as a link to click on, and make your post easier to read.

I really don't have the time nor inclination, to try to decipher your posts.

[B. W.]

Questions: jpbg33,


What is the context of 1 Timothy chapter 3 and how does it relate to chapter four?

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[RickD]

Btw,

What is OSOS? Once saved often saved?

I fully admit, I do not believe in OSOS!

[B. W.]

Btw,

What is OSOS? Once saved often saved?

I fully admit, I do not believe in OSOS!

Maybe this???

https://www.aliexpress.com/osos-clothing_reviews.html

But could also mean

http://www.ososoverlook.com/

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[RickD]

On the other hand,

If OSOS stands for, Once Saved Obviously(Duh!) Saved, then count me in as a believer!

[crochet1949]

My understanding is based on the fact that immediately upon a person's salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer and never leaves. The person's soul is safe with Christ until we are actually with Him for eternity. Scripture Also says that 'by their fruits, we will know them'. There Should be a change in the born-again believer's life of Some sort. If nothing Else, a new desire to read God's Word, a new understanding Of it, a look on their face of contentment -- a desire to share their faith with others.
Unfortunately there are those who have 'walked the aisle' in a church or evangelistic meeting -- they are encourage to join in a group prayer and sign a card. Or they are talked with by a person, but not really Talked to about Why they came forward. The person might not really understand what is going on and were simply told to 'go forward' and everything would be taken care of. So they leave with a very false concept of being 'saved'. Going to a meeting or service hasn't 'changed' them at all. So the thought is 'why bother' cause nothing Has changed. People observe them living exactly the way they Had been living. So - Christianity gets a 'bum wrap'.

[Philip]

'bum wrap'

I had one of them things, back when I had an injured knee!

On the other hand, there's far to much bum RAP going on, nowadays!

[RickD]

I too had a bum wrap. I pulled my gluteus maximus, and needed a wrap.

Or were you talking about bum Rap? When hobos start performing street Rap?

[jpbg33]

I obviously meant OSAS.

I agree with most of that article, but it is far from proving OSAS. I believe the Bible teaches you can backslide.

I was just pointing out two of the flows in the article. There are more but I was making it easy for someone to look back and see what I was talking about by using two that where close together

B.W. That wasn't my argument for or against SOAS. I was just showing two of the hole in the article. The one where the Bible say someone abandoned the faith and started fallowing satan, and the other one he said the widows may or may not have been true believers. which would mean that OSAS may be wrong.

I do believe if you fall from the Faith then you know longer have faith. We are save by faith and nothing else so if you fall from it or abandon it you are not saved any more because you have no faith.

[Philip]

I believe the Bible teaches you can backslide.

So, you also believe that there's at least a chance you might not end up saved? Your salvation is dependent upon YOUR ability to persevere? Wow! And so Philippians 1:6 is merely wishful thinking?

[RickD]

jpbg wrote:

B.W. That wasn't my argument for or against SOAS. I was just showing two of the hole in the article. The one where the Bible say someone abandoned the faith and started fallowing satan, and the other one he said the widows may or may not have been true believers. which would mean that OSAS may be wrong.

Ok, now I'm really confused! What's SOAS?

Saved On A Sailboat?

Saved Or Absolutely Saved?

Same Old Arnold Schwarzenegger?

[Jac3510]

jpbg, I'm not a fan of "not a true believer" arguments (ask Rick), nor have I read Rick's comments--at least, not their context. What I can say, though, is that you're overstating your case against OSAS. Acknowledging the possibility that someone never believed the gospel doesn't count against OSAS. It just means that they never believed the gospel and so were never saved. That doesn't mean that they proved they were unsaved by eventually falling away, although it might mean that their connection with the church or with the faith more generally wasn't very deep or that they were never properly discipled. OSAS folks do not say with Calvinists that Christian maturity is a necessary result of salvation, so you could very well say that if a person falls away, then whether or not they were ever saved, such apostasy is proof that they were never sufficiently abiding in Christ. After all, "the one who abides in Him does not sin."

If you want to make a proper argument, I would encourage to stop implying or insinuating or suggesting that Rick's statements prove OSAS wrong and instead make a rigorous case. Rigorous doesn't mean long and detailed. Just the opposite: it means concise, where the terms lock together. To give a simple syllogism:

1. Whoever believes has everlasting life
2. Rick has believed
3. Therefore Rick has everlasting life

That's rigorous. So present a simple case for us. It doens't have to be in a syllogism like that, but in my own estimation you've not actually provided a proper argument to respond to.