Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

[RickD]

ken wrote:
I believe everybody is born Atheist. You are either Theist or Atheist, you can’t be both nor neither. In order to be Theist I believe you have to have an understanding of what God is, and infants are unable to have such an understanding. Just like the Piraha people of the Amazon that I mentioned earlier, who never heard of any type of God thus they are considered atheist, an infant who never heard of God I believe are atheist as well.

Ken,

Nobody is born atheist. Atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist. Nobody is born with that belief.

ken wrote:
I was born Atheist and was introduced to Theism as I grew up, then when I became an adult, I became skeptical of theism and went back to Atheism. I didn't just decide one day to become Atheist over my Corn Flakes, it was a gradual thing. Belief is not something you choose (though you can control the direction of your beliefs) belief is what happens when reason and logic demands it. Just as reason and logic demanded you reject what you were told about Santa when you were a child, reason and logic demanded I reject what I was told about God as an adult.
Does this make sense to you? If not, tell me where I’m going wrong.

Kenny,

As you have been told before, reason and logic had nothing to do with you rejecting your irrational image of God, therefore your rejection of the real God.

You refuse to see God for who he actually is, and reject some warped, fantasy of a God that you made up in your head, as is obvious from your post I quoted to PaulS. It's painfully obvious that you neither understand scripture, nor who God must be if He is God. You can't understand the basic concept of why there can and must be only one God. And instead of focusing on who God is, you focus on some fairy tale of your imagination.

So no, reason and logic aren't why you reject God.

You need to start being more willing to see God for who He actually is. Instead of continually rejecting the god you have invented in your mind.

[Kenny]

ken wrote:
I believe everybody is born Atheist. You are either Theist or Atheist, you can’t be both nor neither. In order to be Theist I believe you have to have an understanding of what God is, and infants are unable to have such an understanding. Just like the Piraha people of the Amazon that I mentioned earlier, who never heard of any type of God thus they are considered atheist, an infant who never heard of God I believe are atheist as well.

Ken,

Nobody is born atheist. Atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist. Nobody is born with that belief.

If a person is not born Atheist, do you believe he is born Theist? Even though he can’t understand the concept of God? If not, if he isn’t atheist nor theist, what is he? You must be either A or not A, you can’t be both or neither. So what would you call an infant?

Ken

[Audie]

Everything we believe in involves a CHOICE to believe in it.
Atheism is a choice.
It is a choice to NOT believe the evidence for God and TO BELIEVE the evidence that no god exists.

That may be the bright line that distinguishes "believers' from other people.

"Choosing" to believe. Deciding what to believe.

I dont doubt that some-the believers- can just decide to believe something, and then believe it.

Doesn't work that way for me. No more than I can do the White Queen thing and believe 6 impossible things before breakfast.

You are right that things are more complex. Belief runs not simply from our heads, but starts much deeper within our hearts as I see it.

Prease exprain? Sans metaphor, s.v.p.?

[Kurieuo]

Everything we believe in involves a CHOICE to believe in it.
Atheism is a choice.
It is a choice to NOT believe the evidence for God and TO BELIEVE the evidence that no god exists.

That may be the bright line that distinguishes "believers' from other people.

"Choosing" to believe. Deciding what to believe.

I dont doubt that some-the believers- can just decide to believe something, and then believe it.

Doesn't work that way for me. No more than I can do the White Queen thing and believe 6 impossible things before breakfast.

You are right that things are more complex. Belief runs not simply from our heads, but starts much deeper within our hearts as I see it.

Prease exprain? Sans metaphor, s.v.p.?

Belief is profoundly attached to who we are. What we believe, is a process, a direction we follow in life, experiences we go through, that culminates with intellectual assent (or dissent) of this or that.

No one, can just decide to believe something. BUT, one can seek to believe something. Sometimes there are unpleasant surprises. I've often sought to believe things, my heart was open, and then I've seen the opposite was the case -- sometimes leaving me flabbergasted.

My heart started a process, it may have been wrong, but the process I went through resulted in this or that belief. Similarly, I've had a heart to believe something, and the more I've uncovered supported such.

Belief is therefore not simply a choice, but rather beliefs form part of who we are and happen through a process we go through. They ultimately start with who we are, are deeply embedded and often show our hearts. Some people, their hearts, are clouded with emotion whether love, hurts, pain, certain experiences. The outworking of such can be beliefs that are wrong.

We're not, no human, is strictly objectively rational. Rather, we are a combination of passion and reason. Beliefs are a process that involve both. To be clear, I agree with you, that we cannot just decide to believe something over breakfast, unless such is perhaps a very simple matter that requires little thought to realise.

[RickD]

ken wrote:
I believe everybody is born Atheist. You are either Theist or Atheist, you can’t be both nor neither. In order to be Theist I believe you have to have an understanding of what God is, and infants are unable to have such an understanding. Just like the Piraha people of the Amazon that I mentioned earlier, who never heard of any type of God thus they are considered atheist, an infant who never heard of God I believe are atheist as well.

Ken,

Nobody is born atheist. Atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist. Nobody is born with that belief.

If a person is not born Atheist, do you believe he is born Theist? Even though he can’t understand the concept of God? If not, if he isn’t atheist nor theist, what is he? You must be either A or not A, you can’t be both or neither. So what would you call an infant?

Ken

Atheism and theism are by definition, beliefs. How can an infant have a belief about anything? They're not capable of that kind of thing.

[Kenny]

ken wrote:
I believe everybody is born Atheist. You are either Theist or Atheist, you can’t be both nor neither. In order to be Theist I believe you have to have an understanding of what God is, and infants are unable to have such an understanding. Just like the Piraha people of the Amazon that I mentioned earlier, who never heard of any type of God thus they are considered atheist, an infant who never heard of God I believe are atheist as well.

Ken,

Nobody is born atheist. Atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist. Nobody is born with that belief.

If a person is not born Atheist, do you believe he is born Theist? Even though he can’t understand the concept of God? If not, if he isn’t atheist nor theist, what is he? You must be either A or not A, you can’t be both or neither. So what would you call an infant?

Ken

Atheism and theism are by definition, beliefs. How can an infant have a belief about anything? They're not capable of that kind of thing.

Do you believe it is possible for a person who does not believe in God, to not be Atheist?

Ken

[RickD]

ken wrote:
I believe everybody is born Atheist. You are either Theist or Atheist, you can’t be both nor neither. In order to be Theist I believe you have to have an understanding of what God is, and infants are unable to have such an understanding. Just like the Piraha people of the Amazon that I mentioned earlier, who never heard of any type of God thus they are considered atheist, an infant who never heard of God I believe are atheist as well.

Ken,

Nobody is born atheist. Atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist. Nobody is born with that belief.

If a person is not born Atheist, do you believe he is born Theist? Even though he can’t understand the concept of God? If not, if he isn’t atheist nor theist, what is he? You must be either A or not A, you can’t be both or neither. So what would you call an infant?

Ken

Atheism and theism are by definition, beliefs. How can an infant have a belief about anything? They're not capable of that kind of thing.

Do you believe it is possible for a person who does not believe in God, to not be Atheist?

Ken

Yes. I just gave you one example, babies. And mentally retarded people too.

[Kenny]

Ken,

Nobody is born atheist. Atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist. Nobody is born with that belief.

If a person is not born Atheist, do you believe he is born Theist? Even though he can’t understand the concept of God? If not, if he isn’t atheist nor theist, what is he? You must be either A or not A, you can’t be both or neither. So what would you call an infant?

Ken

Atheism and theism are by definition, beliefs. How can an infant have a belief about anything? They're not capable of that kind of thing.

Do you believe it is possible for a person who does not believe in God, to not be Atheist?

Ken

Yes. I just gave you one example, babies. And mentally retarded people too.

Okay; so if people with no concept of God are not Atheist, what are they?

Ken

[Danieltwotwenty]

If a person is not born Atheist, do you believe he is born Theist? Even though he can’t understand the concept of God? If not, if he isn’t atheist nor theist, what is he? You must be either A or not A, you can’t be both or neither. So what would you call an infant?

Ken

Atheism and theism are by definition, beliefs. How can an infant have a belief about anything? They're not capable of that kind of thing.

Do you believe it is possible for a person who does not believe in God, to not be Atheist?

Ken

Yes. I just gave you one example, babies. And mentally retarded people too.

Okay; so if people with no concept of God are not Atheist, what are they?

Ken

They would be the same way in reference to morals, they would be amoral instead or moral or immoral. They have no concept of morality and what it entails hence they are amoral. It would be the same way with beliefs, the have no concept of God (belief) or what it is and they have no concept of atheism (disbelief) or what that is, they would have abeliefs as opposed to having beliefs. A baby or severely mentally disabled person cannot be an atheist, as they have no understanding of what it means to be atheist.

[Kenny]

Atheism and theism are by definition, beliefs. How can an infant have a belief about anything? They're not capable of that kind of thing.

Do you believe it is possible for a person who does not believe in God, to not be Atheist?

Ken

Yes. I just gave you one example, babies. And mentally retarded people too.

Okay; so if people with no concept of God are not Atheist, what are they?

Ken

They would be the same way in reference to morals, they would be amoral instead or moral or immoral. They have no concept of morality and what it entails hence they are amoral. It would be the same way with beliefs, the have no concept of God (belief) or what it is and they have no concept of atheism (disbelief) or what that is, they would have abeliefs as opposed to having beliefs. A baby or severely mentally disabled person cannot be an atheist, as they have no understanding of what it means to be atheist.

So you would call a person who does not believe in God, and makes no claim about God, an Abelief? Are you kidding me? That isn't even a word! Care to try again? Hint: Atheism is not defined as disbelief because all atheists believe in something, they just don't believe in God.

Ken

[Danieltwotwenty]

Do you believe it is possible for a person who does not believe in God, to not be Atheist?

Ken

Yes. I just gave you one example, babies. And mentally retarded people too.

Okay; so if people with no concept of God are not Atheist, what are they?

Ken

They would be the same way in reference to morals, they would be amoral instead or moral or immoral. They have no concept of morality and what it entails hence they are amoral. It would be the same way with beliefs, the have no concept of God (belief) or what it is and they have no concept of atheism (disbelief) or what that is, they would have abeliefs as opposed to having beliefs. A baby or severely mentally disabled person cannot be an atheist, as they have no understanding of what it means to be atheist.

So you would call a person who does not believe in God, and makes no claim about God, an Abelief? Are you kidding me? That isn't even a word! Care to try again? Hint: Atheism is not defined as disbelief because all atheists believe in something, they just don't believe in God.

Ken

I realise I made up a word, I had to because one does not exist, mainly because we usually don't talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as having beliefs or unbelief as they are not capable of either. The same way we don't talk about talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as being moral or immoral. In both cases they are not capable and would be a-XXXXXXXX

A baby can no more make a decision about morals than it can about beliefs, hence a baby cannot be am atheist.

[Kenny]

Yes. I just gave you one example, babies. And mentally retarded people too.

Okay; so if people with no concept of God are not Atheist, what are they?

Ken

They would be the same way in reference to morals, they would be amoral instead or moral or immoral. They have no concept of morality and what it entails hence they are amoral. It would be the same way with beliefs, the have no concept of God (belief) or what it is and they have no concept of atheism (disbelief) or what that is, they would have abeliefs as opposed to having beliefs. A baby or severely mentally disabled person cannot be an atheist, as they have no understanding of what it means to be atheist.

So you would call a person who does not believe in God, and makes no claim about God, an Abelief? Are you kidding me? That isn't even a word! Care to try again? Hint: Atheism is not defined as disbelief because all atheists believe in something, they just don't believe in God.

Ken

I realise I made up a word, I had to because one does not exist, mainly because we usually don't talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as having beliefs or unbelief as they are not capable of either. The same way we don't talk about talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as being moral or immoral. In both cases they are not capable and would be a-XXXXXXXX

A baby can no more make a decision about morals than it can about beliefs, hence a baby cannot be am atheist.

As I mentioned earlier, what about the Piraha people? They have no concept of God, they are not babies, they are not retarded, and they are not immoral. They have plenty of beliefs, and they have plenty of unbeliefs. What would you call them?

Ken

[Danieltwotwenty]

Okay; so if people with no concept of God are not Atheist, what are they?

Ken

They would be the same way in reference to morals, they would be amoral instead or moral or immoral. They have no concept of morality and what it entails hence they are amoral. It would be the same way with beliefs, the have no concept of God (belief) or what it is and they have no concept of atheism (disbelief) or what that is, they would have abeliefs as opposed to having beliefs. A baby or severely mentally disabled person cannot be an atheist, as they have no understanding of what it means to be atheist.

So you would call a person who does not believe in God, and makes no claim about God, an Abelief? Are you kidding me? That isn't even a word! Care to try again? Hint: Atheism is not defined as disbelief because all atheists believe in something, they just don't believe in God.

Ken

I realise I made up a word, I had to because one does not exist, mainly because we usually don't talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as having beliefs or unbelief as they are not capable of either. The same way we don't talk about talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as being moral or immoral. In both cases they are not capable and would be a-XXXXXXXX

A baby can no more make a decision about morals than it can about beliefs, hence a baby cannot be am atheist.

As I mentioned earlier, what about the Piraha people? They have no concept of God, they are not babies, they are not retarded, and they are not immoral. What would you call them?

Ken

Neutral and lacking in knowledge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_people

However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment.

They seem to believe in the super natural, they just don't believe in God in the western sense of the word, nature would be their "God".

So I take back the neutral comment, they have beliefs.

[Kenny]

They would be the same way in reference to morals, they would be amoral instead or moral or immoral. They have no concept of morality and what it entails hence they are amoral. It would be the same way with beliefs, the have no concept of God (belief) or what it is and they have no concept of atheism (disbelief) or what that is, they would have abeliefs as opposed to having beliefs. A baby or severely mentally disabled person cannot be an atheist, as they have no understanding of what it means to be atheist.

So you would call a person who does not believe in God, and makes no claim about God, an Abelief? Are you kidding me? That isn't even a word! Care to try again? Hint: Atheism is not defined as disbelief because all atheists believe in something, they just don't believe in God.

Ken

I realise I made up a word, I had to because one does not exist, mainly because we usually don't talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as having beliefs or unbelief as they are not capable of either. The same way we don't talk about talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as being moral or immoral. In both cases they are not capable and would be a-XXXXXXXX

A baby can no more make a decision about morals than it can about beliefs, hence a baby cannot be am atheist.

As I mentioned earlier, what about the Piraha people? They have no concept of God, they are not babies, they are not retarded, and they are not immoral. What would you call them?

Ken

Neutral and lacking in knowledge.

But that describes all of us; don't you think?

Ken

[Danieltwotwenty]

So you would call a person who does not believe in God, and makes no claim about God, an Abelief? Are you kidding me? That isn't even a word! Care to try again? Hint: Atheism is not defined as disbelief because all atheists believe in something, they just don't believe in God.

Ken

I realise I made up a word, I had to because one does not exist, mainly because we usually don't talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as having beliefs or unbelief as they are not capable of either. The same way we don't talk about talk about babies and the severely mentally disabled as being moral or immoral. In both cases they are not capable and would be a-XXXXXXXX

A baby can no more make a decision about morals than it can about beliefs, hence a baby cannot be am atheist.

As I mentioned earlier, what about the Piraha people? They have no concept of God, they are not babies, they are not retarded, and they are not immoral. What would you call them?

Ken

Neutral and lacking in knowledge.

But that describes all of us; don't you think?

Ken

See my edit....