Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[crochet1949]

Maybe we are seeing the difference between a Head belief and a Heart belief.

When it comes to biblical "believe", as in John 3:16, believe means trust. There is no head vs heart regarding trust. I just don't see a distinction. Trust in Christ, and have eternal life.

I meant that a person Can 'know' in their head and not realize that their Heart hasn't accepted, yet. I did that for a while Before realizing that it wasn't in my heart yet.

[RickD]

Maybe we are seeing the difference between a Head belief and a Heart belief.

When it comes to biblical "believe", as in John 3:16, believe means trust. There is no head vs heart regarding trust. I just don't see a distinction. Trust in Christ, and have eternal life.

I meant that a person Can 'know' in their head and not realize that their Heart hasn't accepted, yet. I did that for a while Before realizing that it wasn't in my heart yet.

I'm not sure I'm following you.

Again, believe in Christ, means trust in Christ. It's not a head vs heart thing. How can I trust in who Christ is, and what he's done, to offer me eternal life, and only trust him in my head?

[crochet1949]

There are those who don't associate belief In with Trust in Christ. I can Believe that the chair I bought is strong enough to hold me but do I Trust it enough to sit on it without it collapsing under me.

A person can believe the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again after 3 days. But they don't necessarily Trust those facts to apply to Them.

[abelcainsbrother]

There is no losing our salvation once we are saved and only God knows who truly has been saved,not everybody who claims to believe in Jesus or says they are a Christian is,and even then only God knows. This is why we cannot judge people based on their actions and say they are saved or not,only God knows. The problem some overlook is not everybody who claims they are a Christian is,only those who were truly saved are. Do not play God because you cannot know who is saved or not based on people's actions.It could surprise you who makes it to heaven and who doesn't.

And THAT is exactly why we Need to be showing Loving concern for people's spiritual condition. God's Word gives the way to be saved. Belief takes place in our heart. We express it verbally. The Holy Spirit is the One who comes into us and makes the difference. We become a child of God. Our actions Should reflect the inner change. If a person's life does Not reflect Jesus Christ then there Is a problem. A desire for Bible reading, praying, joining a group of fellow Christians for fellowship all produce spiritual growth / development. Guidance for new believers -- all these elements are important.
Part of the job of pastors, S.S. teachers, etc is to teach Biblical ethics, morality -- guide the group of believers to deeper understanding and practice in daily life. If /when people are Not living Godly lives -- help Needs to be given -- direction given in a loving way. Come along side of the person and make an effort to get to know them and guide them. And sometimes a person simply needs to know that someone cares enough To approach them. They need a Christian friend.

A person buys a piece of property and it has trees / bushes on it. The fruit it produces identifies what kind of tree it is.

And, yes, God Does know our hearts -- He's the only one who Really does. His presence in our lives Does make a difference.

I understand what you are saying and to me it will be an automatic thing for a person who was truly saved by Jesus to do the things you speak about,however there are people who do them things you speak of and have not been saved.There is noway you or I can judge and know which ones were truly saved and the ones that were'nt. There are people who can go to church for years,go to bible studies,etc can even quote scripture and live what we would see as a righteous life yet have not been saved and then there are people who have truly been saved who simply fell into sin and might be in a bad situation where they do not seem like a Christian,yet are. The ones who are not saved but go to church,bible studies,etc are lost and the one that fell into sin is not lost. So you cannot tell based on fruit who is a true Christian or not.Think goats and sheep.

[BigHamster]

I can tell you that some people who are given the gift of clairvoyance by the Holy Spirit, can tell who is saved or not saved. The Holy Spirit determines if the information is allowed to be given in the first place (for various reasons). I know this from experience (not from reading it in a book). So yes, God knows who is saved or not, but on rare occasions, he lets others know too.

[Jac3510]

There are those who don't associate belief In with Trust in Christ. I can Believe that the chair I bought is strong enough to hold me but do I Trust it enough to sit on it without it collapsing under me.

A person can believe the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again after 3 days. But they don't necessarily Trust those facts to apply to Them.

The Greek word for "believe" refers to the idea of "trust" you are talking about here. There is a Greek word that means "believe" in the sense you are talking about--being persuaded a fact is true. That word is peitho. It has enough semantic overlap that, occasionally, it is even used to discuss faith in Christ. But the word pisteuo (the word behind "believe") means "to entrust one's self to." Here's as good a case study as I can offer you in a single passage:

• Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed [pisteuo] in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself [pisteuo] to them, for he knew all people. (John 2:23-24)

The English rendering obscures a little bit what John is saying here. They believed in Him, but He did not believe in them. But what does that mean? The English tries to bring that out -- they believed in Him, they trusted Him (on account of the miracles). They trusted in His Name. But He did not trust them, because He knew how fickle they were, which is something we see in the rest of the book. They entrusted themselves in Him, but He did not entrust Himself to them.

That's just what the word pisteuo (believe) means. Your chair example is a fine one. You can believe a chair will hold you up, but you may not entrust yourself to it. Biblical faith is not (contrary to some, even in my own free grace camp) believing a set of facts about Jesus. It is relying upon those facts. In old preacher language, it is throwing yourself on God's mercy. It is trusting that Jesus saves you. You do that, you have everlasting life. And I submit to you that makes perfect sense. Jesus makes a promise: whoever believes in Him has everlasting life (cf John 6:47). Do you "believe" that? Not just to you acknowledge it is true, but are you staking your eternity on it? If so, if you response is, "Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God" (which is to say, I have entrusted myself to you my Savior), then what more fitting and appropriate response to that faith, to that cry of salvation, is there then for God to save you?

[Philip]

BigHamster: I can tell you that some people who are given the gift of clairvoyance by the Holy Spirit, can tell who is saved or not saved.

And so, Hamster, do YOU have such a gift?

Big Hamster: The Holy Spirit determines if the information is allowed to be given in the first place (for various reasons). I know this from experience (not from reading it in a book).

And the ONLY way you could know whether or not this is true is only one of two ways: Either YOU have this gift as well, so as to be able to confirm what someone else has indicated, OR someone told you this assessment and you believe it to be true, upon faith in the word of another. But just because you vicariously saw someone supposedly reveal such, does not mean it is true. My guess is you have absolutely NO way of knowing such, and so you must trust that what someone else is telling or teaching you about this issue is telling you the truth. Meaning, unless you had such a gift, you must take upon faith what someone else has said to be true.

BigHamster: So yes, God knows who is saved or not

Of course!

BigHamster: ... but on rare occasions, he lets others know too.

HUGE redflag for me - as something is very wrong here! I have literally have brushed up against thousands of Christians in my over 40 years of having faith in Christ. Not ONCE have I come across a person with such a gift. But I've come across every other gift except key sign gifts that went away after the Apostle era. Now it MIGHT be that God reveals such, exceptionally rarely. But as for someone having this as an ongoing GIFT - no! Because God doesn't just give certain gifts to only those in certain churches/denominations, while spreading the rest of His gifts throughout Christiandom's churches!

[crochet1949]

There is no losing our salvation once we are saved and only God knows who truly has been saved,not everybody who claims to believe in Jesus or says they are a Christian is,and even then only God knows. This is why we cannot judge people based on their actions and say they are saved or not,only God knows. The problem some overlook is not everybody who claims they are a Christian is,only those who were truly saved are. Do not play God because you cannot know who is saved or not based on people's actions.It could surprise you who makes it to heaven and who doesn't.

And THAT is exactly why we Need to be showing Loving concern for people's spiritual condition. God's Word gives the way to be saved. Belief takes place in our heart. We express it verbally. The Holy Spirit is the One who comes into us and makes the difference. We become a child of God. Our actions Should reflect the inner change. If a person's life does Not reflect Jesus Christ then there Is a problem. A desire for Bible reading, praying, joining a group of fellow Christians for fellowship all produce spiritual growth / development. Guidance for new believers -- all these elements are important.
Part of the job of pastors, S.S. teachers, etc is to teach Biblical ethics, morality -- guide the group of believers to deeper understanding and practice in daily life. If /when people are Not living Godly lives -- help Needs to be given -- direction given in a loving way. Come along side of the person and make an effort to get to know them and guide them. And sometimes a person simply needs to know that someone cares enough To approach them. They need a Christian friend.

A person buys a piece of property and it has trees / bushes on it. The fruit it produces identifies what kind of tree it is.

And, yes, God Does know our hearts -- He's the only one who Really does. His presence in our lives Does make a difference.

I understand what you are saying and to me it will be an automatic thing for a person who was truly saved by Jesus to do the things you speak about,however there are people who do them things you speak of and have not been saved.There is noway you or I can judge and know which ones were truly saved and the ones that were'nt. There are people who can go to church for years,go to bible studies,etc can even quote scripture and live what we would see as a righteous life yet have not been saved and then there are people who have truly been saved who simply fell into sin and might be in a bad situation where they do not seem like a Christian,yet are. The ones who are not saved but go to church,bible studies,etc are lost and the one that fell into sin is not lost. So you cannot tell based on fruit who is a true Christian or not.Think goats and sheep.

So -- you're suggesting that a pear tree Could produce peaches or apples and Still be a pear tree?!

There Was an older couple I'd known years ago -- the husband had been in the church for Years -- Everyone Assumed he was a believer cause he Had been living a Godly life and no one even Thought to Ask him about his salvation. His wife was a wonderful woman who Was a believer. She felt led to have them change churches to another town close by. New pastor and people. The pastor Did approach them after a week or two -- asked her husband what he based his salvation On. He didn't have an answer and That pastor was able to lead him to salvation. They stayed there for a while observing his spiritual growth and then they moved back to their 'home' church.
Some churches have a testimony time -- share praises and prayer requests and share their testimonies. How / when they came to faith. It's a great time for sharing with Christian friends. And it's Wonderful / Encouraging to others to share how Christ has worked in Their lives to bring them to faith in Christ and give thanks to God for various ways God has answered prayers. As well as various Scriptures that mean a lot to them.
The same thing Can happen in Bible studies -- just visiting with others -- Any time people get together to share -- get to know each other. And people Have been known to Get saved as a result Of going to Bible studies.

[crochet1949]

BigHamster -- there Are spiritual gifts listed in the New Testament -- and what You are describing isn't there.

Philip -- is it possibly the gift of discernment? Or is That having to do with various Scriptures only.

[BigHamster]

And so, Hamster, do YOU have such a gift?

BigHamster -- there Are spiritual gifts listed in the New Testament -- and what You are describing isn't there.

Its not possible for me to prove to you what I mentioned above no more than I can prove to you the existence of God. One must experience it for themselves. Pray and ask for evidence if you like. That's all I did.


I don't think its of any real practical value unless you can use the information to help someone somehow. Walking down the street telling people "you're saved", "you're not saved" wont help anyone.

[RickD]

The gift of clairvoyance?

From the Holy Spirit?

I think someone needs to pray for discernment.

[Philip]

Hamster: Its not possible for me to prove to you what I mentioned above no more than I can prove to you the existence of God. One must experience it for themselves. Pray and ask for evidence if you like. That's all I did.

So, you are validating the truth of a supposed, very rare gift of God through personal EXPERIENCE???!!! I can tell you that if you believe that, discerning a truth of God through personal experience, then you are ripe for being deceived. You'll not find this in Scripture! And, just let me add: This also means that for everyone ELSE, who DON'T have such a gift, they must fully trust what others are asserting (who supposedly have this gift), or others who have had such assertions validated through experience. These means, ultimately, a truth of God requires trust in other persons, as most people would have no other way of validating this truth. VERY dangerous to believe that. We can talk ourselves into believing all manner of such pronouncements - and to great harm. WHERE have ANY such people with any such gifts been in all of the churches and people I've encountered in over four decades of being a Christian? Because MY experience shows this to be missing!

[Kurieuo]

Sorry Hamster, but God speaks to us all. It's not a special gift at all. Unless you're talking fortunetelling clairvoyance, in which case one should really be placing their hope and trust in God. Even in OT with their prophets and all, Scripture is quite clear such is wrong.

[crochet1949]

I just looked up the spiritual gift of discernment. http://www.spiritualgiftstest.com/spiri ... iscernment
The passages listed are 1 Corinthians 12:10 Acts 5:3-6 16:16-18 1 John 4:1 -- haven't looked them up for myself.

'to enable certain Christians to clearly recognize and distinguish between the influence of God, Satan, the world, and the flesh in a given situation. The church needs those with this gift to warn believers in times of danger or keep them from being led astray by false teaching.
"The Greek word for the gift of discernment is 'Diakrisis". The word describes being able to distinguish, discern, judge or appraise a person, statement, situation, or environment. Hebrews 5:14 is also given.

All the spiritual gifts given to believers by the Holy Spirit are meant to help build up the church body.

[jpbg33]

RickD is right on "Belief" All you have to do is believe. The bible does not say that you have to have this much belief to be saved. It said who so ever believeth.

The bible also doesn't say that Jesus looks at our belief to see if it is enough to receive the free gift.

One other thing. You can not know who is saved but you can have a good idea who is or isn't, but still really God only knows.

Bible does say this.

Mat_7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

But still we are not God and we do not know everyone's heart only God does.

The Bible also say we can know if we are saved. We do not have to live our lives wondering if we are saved. We know if we are or not. If you don't know there it a real good chance that you are not. We may wonder from time to time and that is ok as well, and if we ever wonder then we should go make sure we are. Just because you are making sure does not mean you lost your Salvation. We are just making sure and there is nothing wrong with that.

I know I do not believe osas. That doesn't mean I think everyone that believes that are bad people. Believing osas or not really doesn't mater what maters is are you saved. I believe there will be people who believe osao in heaven and people who do not believe osas in Heaven as well. I also believe there will be people in hell that believe osas and people who do not believe osas in hell as well. The way we believe on that doesn't save us.

So don't get me wrong I do not believe you are sinning believing osas. I just see it different. That is why I do not get angry debating it because I see us all as on the same team. But I debate because I think I am right.