Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[jpbg33]

You do not have to do any thing to stay saved as long as you believe then you are still saved.it if by faith only.

I would like to add that you are saved no matter what you do, after you are saved as long as you believe, because it is by faith only.

[Jac3510]

Crochet, let me ask my question a different way:

Do ALL apple trees bear apples, or are there some apple trees that, by some defect, bear no apples at all. I grant that no apple tree bears, say, pears or oranges. But would you agree that there are barren apple trees?

Sorry -- I'm the wrong person to ask that to. I'm not a 'tree' person in the slightest. I Have heard that some 'apple' trees don't always bear very good apples -- depends on spraying, etc.

There Are people who Do accept Christ as personal Savior and don't experience much growth for whatever reason. And maybe they Do get into trouble / live lives that are Not pleasing to God and end up being a very poor example for others. Those people Have been known to be taken home 'sooner' / maybe a sudden illness / a single-car accident/whatever. And it's been apparent to those who know the person -- they grieve that their life was taken by God so as not to continue being a really poor Christian example for others to mistakenly follow. It would have been So Much Better for the person to have been willing to live a positive life. But they are as 'saved' and in heaven as the most Godly person ever on this earth.

Regarding the barren apple trees -- chances are that the grower found a non-producer to be worthy of getting chopped down or pruned down to nothingness in effort for New growth to be a better producer.

The point is that there are barren apple trees. Look at the story of the barren fig tree as another example. You keep citing Galatians 5 as proof saved people will bear fruit. I'm saying that only says what the fruit of the Spirit is. Like the fruit of the apple tree is apples, but that doesn't guarantee that there WILL be apples, so the fruit of the Spirit is love, etc., but that doesn't guarantee that theer WILL be love, etc. There ought to be, and if there isn't, there will be serious consequences. But you cannot say that there necessarily will be or that those consequences include Hell.

Unless, of course, you can show me where Gal 5 says, "This is the fruit of the Spirit, and if you don't bear this fruit, then you will go to Hell." I don't see that verse in there. Do you? If you don't, then you need to retract your claim that Gal 5 teaches it, otherwise you are adding to God's word and not believing what is actually written. That's not exactly one of the fruit of the Spirit.

[B. W.]

I half way agree with b. w. but not totally .

First sinners and Christians can both choose to sin or not to sin. God or the devil nether one makes anyone sin. It is our choice to sin. Sinners do not have the power to overcome the world but they do have the choice to sin or not. When I was a sinner I could still choose to lie to someone or not, I could choose to still or not, I could choose to kill or not ect.... I was not forced to do any of them. The only thing was I didn't care if I sinned and even if I did care I didn't have the power to live above it, but I stile had the choice and I didn't sin every time the choice came up.

Christians are not given the choice to sin that isn't power at all. We already had the choice we just didn't have the power to make the right choices all the time.

think about it every time someone asked you if you did this or that before you were saved you didn't always lie some times to choose to tell the truth.

Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments.

That was what Paul was facing He loved God and was fighting against sin not to stay saved but because he love Jesus, but he kept messing up. That was the struggle. Then he said how he overcame that struggle. He said it was through the power of God. If the power of God was just the power to choose then he would stile be in the same problem he was in in the first place. It wasn't that he didn't have the power to choose but that he loved Jesus and didn't wont to sin. That was the struggle.

So to get him out of the struggle he was in, the power has to be the power to overcome sin in our lives. Because the struggle was that he love Jesus and because he did he wonted to live right, but kept messing up. Then he was give power to stop this struggle he was having in his life because he loved Jesus. that power was the power of God to overcome sin.

Yes, it is true that unsaved people do indeed make choices of both good and bad, sin and not to sin, but only in a degree. In my post, to avoid a long book, I did not mention this for a reason and that reason was to keep the length of the post short.

The degree I speak of is this. The unsaved have their own law of moral conscience to decide what is good and what is bad, what is sin and what is not sin just as it is written in Romans 2:14,15. However, just as Romans 2:15 points out:

...in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them... Rom 2:15 NASB

Look at the phrase in the text: their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them...

That is the error of the law of moral conscience - it is used to defend oneself more than accuse oneself of sinning. One defends committing adultery in many different ways to free themselves of being accused of wrong doing. One can defend themselves to slander, cheat, steal, be bitter, or even get drunk only on Friday and Saturday nights and say, they are not sinning. Some even tout moral relativism as the ultimate sources of objective morality there is. All done to excuse self from being accused of wrongful behaviors and actions.

Yet, they hate being slandered, stolen from, hate the mean drunk did, don't like people who are two faced, yet, justify themselves to do the same things without consequence. As Paul the apostle wrote in Romans chapter Seven, the law exposes what sin is as well as all peoples falling into sin, naturally. The point of the Law was to expose sin and reveal God's remedy for it within the human condition.

So yes, even the unsaved can choose not to sin, yet, they cannot be free from it and are seeking ways to justify their falling into it. That is the difference.

The problem within the modern church in large part is failure to share on God's grace realistically as the means of choosing how not to sin. You do not hear much on that topic these days. Romans 6:11-22 makes a powerful statement for those who are saved concerning this. So does Titus 2:11,12 and the NIV makes it a point that denying ungodliness and worldly passions is saying a BIG NO to these pulls into sinning. Hebrews 4:16 reveals how as does 1 John 1:9 as we learn to say no. it takes time.

Since it takes time, there is no such thing as sinless perfection in this mortal life. Rather we become free from bondage's of sin, one sin at a time until we go home to be with the Lord. In the process we help others along the way 2 Co 1:4. In this we discover our purpose is knowing our Creator personally and invading his light midst such darkness. So for the Christian, it is a process of learning to sin less and less by our choices till we arrive home in heaven. However for the unsaved, it is business as usual justifying ones choices to sin.

Do you see the difference?

Next, as for the other posts about trees and such...

Job 34:23 makes a profound statement.

So if one is saved by a deathbed confession, so be it and praise God! That person became fully sanctified because of salvation. Just because I have to labor a while in the field helping others along the Christian way does not give me the right to become envious and snippy over the same wage the death bed conversion earned as I who labored in God's field early in the morning. It is all in God's hands and in that I trust and learn to do what he tells me along life's highway...
Matthew 24:45

Blessings
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[B. W.]

Jpbg,

Salvation is a free gift from God

Eph 2:8, For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God... NASB

Rom 11:29...for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. NASB

Therefore if God's gifts are irrevocable so is the gift of salvation as well. You cannot lose an irrevocable gift from God, if so then God ceases to be God.

John 10:27,28,29,30 is true, no one, not even yourself can escape the Good Shepherd's hand because neither you nor I are stronger than God.

Now that is good News!
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[jpbg33]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying B. W. but the power Paul was given was the power to live above sin. He had that full power while on earth and so can we. Paul didn't wait until he died and we do not have to either.

You are misinterpreting that verse. We did not give our self the gift God did. That verse was saying that God would not take a gift back from us. It didn't say we could not let it go.


Jac3510 you are misinterpreting Galatians big time.


Gal 5:6  For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 
Gal 5:7  Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 
Gal 5:8  This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 


in these verses Paul is saying what I have been saying faith worketh by love. that was what Jesus was saying when he said if you love me then keep my commandments. It isn't us doing anything but our faith working in us.

then Paul said who gave you the idea to not obey? then he said that teaching did not come form God.


Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 
Gal 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 
Gal 5:18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 
Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 
Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 
Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 
Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 
Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 
Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. 

these verses say to walk in the Spirit and we will not sin, not might not sin, but will not sin. then Paul list things that are the works of the flesh and says that people who do these things will not go to heaven plane and simple. that was what Jesus said when He said a good tree can not bear bad fruit.



then he list fruits of the Spirit and said if you are a Christian then you have killed the flash and the works there of, and if you are Christians then live right. This is what Jesus was calling go fruit.



fruits of the Spirit good fruit. Works of the flash bad fruit.

as you can see all scripture works together.

[RickD]

You do not have to do any thing to stay saved as long as you believe then you are still saved.it if by faith only.

I would like to add that you are saved no matter what you do, after you are saved as long as you believe, because it is by faith only.

So,

If a Christian that has believed in Christ, and has the indwelling Holy Spirit, has a bad period in his life, and denies believing in Christ, does the Holy Spirit leave that person?

[RickD]

jpbg wrote:
Jac3510 you are misinterpreting Galatians big time.

I don't know why, but I found this extremely amusing, and ironic at the same time.

Come on Jac. You should know better than misrepresenting Galatians! And "big time" to boot!

[jpbg33]

No the person leaves the Holy Spirit. The bible never says you can not leave the Holy Spirit.

If you stop believing you are leaving the Holy Spirit not the Holy Spirit leaving you.

God will never leave a Christian it is us who leaves God.

what are you laughing about now?

[RickD]

No the person leaves the Holy Spirit. The bible never says you can not leave the Holy Spirit.

If you stop believing you are leaving the Holy Spirit not the Holy Spirit leaving you.

God will never leave a Christian it is us who leaves God.

what are you laughing about now?

Jpbg,

God has given us a deposit, GUARANTEEING what is to come. That deposit is the indwelling Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is indwelling a believer once that person trusts Christ, that means the HS comes to indwell us. In order for that guarantee to not be valid, that would mean God would have to remove Himself from us. And God says He has given us a deposit, a promise, GUARANTEEING WHAT'S TO COME. So, now God's guarantees are lies? He can't be trusted to finish what He promised to finish?

Once God has made His promise, we can make God's promise null and void, just from sinning?

Again jpbg,

I'll take the promise from the only One who is trustworthy. Because I know I can't trust myself.

Only God is faithful to deliver on His promise.

You can keep your false gospel of works. If you're relying on yourself not to sin(stop believing), then you are relying on your own ability, over God's promise.

Good luck with that!

[jpbg33]

I am not saying that we are saved by works and you know it. The works that the bible says that Christians will do are done by our faith

osas can not be right if you can stop believing because the bible say if you do not believe then you are going to hell.

and the bible always says unbelievers go to hell and believers only go to heaven.

it also says if you are doing the works of the flesh then you are going to hell.

that is what the bible says.


In John 3:16 where the bible say "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.". It was talking about what happens when a believer dies. He was saying that when they die they are not going to perish but they are going to heaven to live with God for ever.

You have to read into everything and leave out a lot to get what you are saying.

Paul said that if you do the works of the flesh then you are not going to heaven.

he didn't say unless you are saved. you are putting that in not Paul.

And if it didn't mater if you believed then the bible would not have said if you do not believe then you are not going to heaven.

you are taking from the bible and the bible says not to do that. 

[RickD]

jpbg wrote:
In John 3:16 where the bible say "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.". It was talking about what happens when a believer dies. He was saying that when they die they are not going to perish but they are going to heaven to live with God for ever.

Jpbg,

Jac has already addressed that here. You are just wrong in your interpretation of John 3:16. Look at the
Greek. Jac explains it:

Beyond the grammatical misunderstanding, the text does say that whoever believes has, in the present moment, everlasting life. Not will have: has. To have life is to be alive. To not have life is to be dead. (So cf John 5:24.) You are saying that a person is is eternally alive can die, and that is a contradiction in terms. Again, you are saying that a person who has passed out of death and into eternal life can now pass back into death. That is a contradiction in terms. You are looking at life as a commodity, something we possess. As such, you are making what is called a category error (or, in another way, you are committing what is called a four-term fallacy). To have life is not the same idea as to have a car or to have a cold. "To have life" is simply a way of saying that you are, in fact, alive. Life is the principle whereby there is a you to have anything at all. To illustrate, if life were nothing but a commodity, then it would make no sense to talk about "you" having this thing called "life," because prior to having life, there would be no "you" to have it in the first place. In this sense, "life" is very much like "existence." Consider the sentence, "I have existence." We can say that and we know on some level what it means, but you can surely see that it's really a redundant statement, because without existence, there is no "you" to have it at all! And just so with life.

The moment one believes, one has eternal life. John 3:16 says so. I'm going to have to believe what scripture actually says, instead of your misinterpretation.

Maybe someone else will continue the discussion with you, but I'm finished.

I only hope you're good enough not to stop believing. As for me, I'd be a fool to rely on my own power. I've failed before, and I'll fail again. I think I'll stick to God's promises.

[B. W.]

No the person leaves the Holy Spirit. The bible never says you can not leave the Holy Spirit.

If you stop believing you are leaving the Holy Spirit not the Holy Spirit leaving you.

God will never leave a Christian it is us who leaves God.

what are you laughing about now?

So what I am hearing you say is that you, we human beings are more powerful than God and can control God...

Salvation is a free gift from God to human beings. He does not renege on his word, gifts, callings just as the bible teaches.

If a believer in Christ strays, the Good Shepherd will go after that one sheep and bring the straying carrying that one back to the fold - that is a promise. I am thankful of that promise.

Our eternity is secure in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 1:13,14 states what? (see Ephesians 1:13 NKJV , Ephesians 1:14 NKJV)

...Sealed, guarantee are strong words of assurance

Isaiah 55:11 is another.

Lastly,

Though Jac and I do not always agree, he is correct on what he stated about the Galatians text in question. Please reconsider what he mentioned to you.

I can and do understand your position. Many denominations hold to the view one can walk away from God and thus lose salvation all due to the concept of free will.

No where in the bible does it specifically state that God dare not violate human free will. On the contrary, there is ample evidence that he does and has too in order for anyone to become born again. He has to wake them up by violation of their free will to be just to that gift as well. Think about it.

Blessings
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[crochet1949]

Crochet, let me ask my question a different way:

Do ALL apple trees bear apples, or are there some apple trees that, by some defect, bear no apples at all. I grant that no apple tree bears, say, pears or oranges. But would you agree that there are barren apple trees?

Sorry -- I'm the wrong person to ask that to. I'm not a 'tree' person in the slightest. I Have heard that some 'apple' trees don't always bear very good apples -- depends on spraying, etc.

There Are people who Do accept Christ as personal Savior and don't experience much growth for whatever reason. And maybe they Do get into trouble / live lives that are Not pleasing to God and end up being a very poor example for others. Those people Have been known to be taken home 'sooner' / maybe a sudden illness / a single-car accident/whatever. And it's been apparent to those who know the person -- they grieve that their life was taken by God so as not to continue being a really poor Christian example for others to mistakenly follow. It would have been So Much Better for the person to have been willing to live a positive life. But they are as 'saved' and in heaven as the most Godly person ever on this earth.

Regarding the barren apple trees -- chances are that the grower found a non-producer to be worthy of getting chopped down or pruned down to nothingness in effort for New growth to be a better producer.

The point is that there are barren apple trees. Look at the story of the barren fig tree as another example. You keep citing Galatians 5 as proof saved people will bear fruit. I'm saying that only says what the fruit of the Spirit is. Like the fruit of the apple tree is apples, but that doesn't guarantee that there WILL be apples, so the fruit of the Spirit is love, etc., but that doesn't guarantee that theer WILL be love, etc. There ought to be, and if there isn't, there will be serious consequences. But you cannot say that there necessarily will be or that those consequences include Hell.



All I've been Trying to say is that at the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person - - the person becomes Alive spiritually as a result -- The fruit of the Holy spirit coming to indwell a person Will make a difference in the person. The love, joy, peace, etc. Will be part of that person. And He will never leave us nor forsake us. Once the Holy Spirit indwells us, we are 'safe' until Jesus Christ comes back for us or we die.

Unless, of course, you can show me where Gal 5 says, "This is the fruit of the Spirit, and if you don't bear this fruit, then you will go to Hell." I don't see that verse in there. Do you? If you don't, then you need to retract your claim that Gal 5 teaches it, otherwise you are adding to God's word and not believing what is actually written. That's not exactly one of the fruit of the Spirit.

[Jac3510]

The fruit of the Holy spirit coming to indwell a person Will make a difference in the person

You keep asserting this. I'm asking you to show it from Scripture.

Let me give you an unrelated example. Suppose I said to you that some people have the supernatural power, given by the Holy Spirit, to just know who is "really" saved and who isn't. Or suppose I said to you that the Bible is clear that Jesus will return on an evenly numbered year(e.g., 2018, not 2017). Or suppose I said that people with the gift of healing also have the gift of tongues. Or suppose I said that true Christians will work at least one miracle in their lives.

I hope you would disagree with all those statements. I suspect you would tell me as much, offer some Scripture that goes against what I said, and more importantly, you would ask me where the Bible actually says any of those things. Now, suppose I couldn't show you a single verse that said any of them. Would you believe me? OF COURSE NOT.

Now, you are just asserting, without providing ANY biblical evidence, that all true Christians will at some point bear the fruit of the Spirit. You've cited a verse that tells me what the fruit of the Spirit IS. I don't doubt that. I'm asking you for a verse that says that ALL Christians at some point will, in fact, bear that fruit. Because, right now, you are in the position of making a very serious theological claim and offering absolutely no biblical evidence. And worse yet, while you aren't seeing it I grant, the claim you are making contradicts the gospel itself. Let me be very, very blunt here. If a person believes what you are saying, then they do cannot logically believe the gospel.

Thankfully, people believe contradictory ideas all the time, because most of us don't take the time to ensure that all of our beliefs are consistent with one another. But my point is that what you are saying actually contradicts the gospel. And you should take that very, very seriously.

So, AGAIN, I'm asking you--what verse in Scripture do you have that says that ALL Christians will bear the fruit of the Spirit.

And while I wait for you to provide the verse that is nowhere found in Scripture (because it is not only unbiblical, but anti-biblical), I'll direct you to Luke 8:14 as an example that says that some Christians never bear any fruit.

[Jac3510]

Jac3510 you are misinterpreting Galatians big time.

No, I'm not. But I hope you take that charge seriously. Because--and hear me very, very carefully--it means that if I am interpreting the text correctly, then you are preaching a false gospel. In fact, if I am reading Galatians correctly (which you deny), it means that you are guilty of the heresy Paul says in Gal 1:8-9 makes you anathema. You are very literally holding to and teaching the Galatian Heresy, a heresy so serious the Holy Spirit Himself inspired Paul to write very powerfully against. I just want you to see the stakes here.

in these verses Paul is saying what I have been saying faith worketh by love. that was what Jesus was saying when he said if you love me then keep my commandments. It isn't us doing anything but our faith working in us.

Yes, faith works through love. No one, not me, not anyone, denies that. Nor is anyone denying that if you love Jesus then you will keep His commandments. The fact that you think that we are denying those truths, that we are addressing them at all, should tell you something. You don't understand our position. Perhaps that's because you are so busy being defensive on the one hand and so busy attacking a position you don't understand on the other that you ears are shut. It is the fool that despises correction. I'll let you look that up yourself.

these verses say to walk in the Spirit and we will not sin, not might not sin, but will not sin. then Paul list things that are the works of the flesh and says that people who do these things will not go to heaven plane and simple. that was what Jesus said when He said a good tree can not bear bad fruit.

I hope you read very carefully what you just wrote, because the first part is right. If you walk by the Spirit you WILL NOT sin. That means every time you sin you are walking by the flesh, not the Spirit. That's correct. Christians very often do NOT walk by the Spirit. If that proves that you are not saved or that you lost your salvation, then you are unsaved and going to Hell. Unless, of course, you're going to tell us that you always walk by the Spirit, and in that case, 1 John 1 has something to say about you.

as you can see all scripture works together.

They do, and you're ignoring most of Scriptures. You and I were talking about this before and you conveniently stopped answering my question. I would encourage you to go back and look at our exchanges. The results are always the same, and you just repeated the pattern here again. You quote a Scripture and says it means this. I point out that it does NOT mean this, and ask you where you get that out of said passage. You then go to ANOTHER Scripture and say it means this. And the cycle repeats itself. You never actually have a passage that says what you are saying it says.

Why? Because the Bible doesn't say what you say it does. You are reading your own theology, which you did not get from the Bible, into the Bible.

You say you don't believe in salvation by works. I believe you believe that. I'm not accusing you of lying. I'm accusing you of being wrong. What you are teaching is salvation by works. It is a damnable heresy. If you have never believed the gospel (because you do not right now), and if you never do believe it--if you persist in this error and if you have always held this error--then you will be among this in Matthew 7 that, though you were truly committed to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in your life and though you did much for Him, much of which you truly and genuinely believed was through faith and not from your flesh, you will go to Hell. Good intentions don't get us to heaven. Jesus does by saving us, and He saves us when we believe the gospel. I encourage you, sincerely, to repent of your heresy.