Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
- Philip
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
Not an issue at all.Byblos wrote:What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
Think about the CORRECT premise of the argument:
Everything that COMES INTO being or everything that MOVES/Changes.
Energy may have always been BUT for it to become something other than what it is, it MUST be "moved" by something else.
Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
I am well aware of the argument Paul. I'm not so sure Philip sees it that way.PaulSacramento wrote:Not an issue at all.Byblos wrote:What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
Think about the CORRECT premise of the argument:
Everything that COMES INTO being or everything that MOVES/Changes.
Energy may have always been BUT for it to become something other than what it is, it MUST be "moved" by something else.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
Sorry, thought you were playing devil's advocate.Byblos wrote:I am well aware of the argument Paul. I'm not so sure Philip sees it that way.PaulSacramento wrote:Not an issue at all.Byblos wrote:What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
Think about the CORRECT premise of the argument:
Everything that COMES INTO being or everything that MOVES/Changes.
Energy may have always been BUT for it to become something other than what it is, it MUST be "moved" by something else.
Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
In a way I guess I was. My intention is to bring to Philip's attention that the argument from motion or change (i.e. actuality/potentiality) is much more powerful than creation ex nihilo precisely because it says nothing on the eternality of matter/energy.PaulSacramento wrote:Sorry, thought you were playing devil's advocate.Byblos wrote:I am well aware of the argument Paul. I'm not so sure Philip sees it that way.PaulSacramento wrote:Not an issue at all.Byblos wrote:What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
Think about the CORRECT premise of the argument:
Everything that COMES INTO being or everything that MOVES/Changes.
Energy may have always been BUT for it to become something other than what it is, it MUST be "moved" by something else.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
And what if nobody actually has a clue as to what time really is?Byblos wrote:What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
What if the x-men?
And for those younger ( to which that Marvel reference will be meaningless):
What if my grandfather was my grandmother?
What if c-a-t spelled dog?
And for those younger ( to which that Marvel reference will be meaningless):
What if my grandfather was my grandmother?
What if c-a-t spelled dog?
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
Thrice I've brought this up, and thrice it is evaded.PaulSacramento wrote:What if the x-men?
And for those younger ( to which that Marvel reference will be meaningless):
What if my grandfather was my grandmother?
What if c-a-t spelled dog?
Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
The argument from motion says nothing about time nor is it concerned with it.Audie wrote:And what if nobody actually has a clue as to what time really is?Byblos wrote:What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
Bingo.Byblos wrote:The argument from motion says nothing about time nor is it concerned with it.Audie wrote:And what if nobody actually has a clue as to what time really is?Byblos wrote:What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
It is a sign of not understanding an argument when you try to refute it or address issues with it that have nothing to do with it.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
So words like "first' and "eternal" actually have nothing to do with time.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
No, they don't since time, as we understand it, only began when the universe began.Audie wrote:So words like "first' and "eternal" actually have nothing to do with time.
It doesn't apply to what there was "BEFORE".
But if you prefer something less abstract:
First means that it happened before IN SEQUENCE.
Eternal means ALWAYS existed.
- Philip
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
Energy cannot be eternal - it MUST have a source! Of course, one can speculate with all manner of theoreticals. And the energy that originally propelled the elements within the Big Bang had to be applied to such elements with great specificity. And the energy we observe is being used up. Stars burn out, etc.
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Re: Most/Least Powerful Arguments for God
A sign of not reading what I've said is thinking I have tried to "refute" ca.PaulSacramento wrote:Bingo.Byblos wrote:The argument from motion says nothing about time nor is it concerned with it.Audie wrote:And what if nobody actually has a clue as to what time really is?Byblos wrote:What if it were shown that matter/energy in whatever form is indeed eternal? What then?Philip wrote:Basic logic 101: The first cause was something eternal - it could not have created itself. What came from it reveals immense power and intelligence. It had the ability to transform the non-material/non-physical into the physical - and instantly so! I'd love to see someone refute any of these variables - uh, with logic and facts. Because if you cannot refute those with logic and facts, then there is some kind of logic and reality that 1) we cannot know, 2) can never understand, 3) that has the ability to constantly change and morph.
It is a sign of not understanding an argument when you try to refute it or address issues with it that have nothing to do with it.
Speaking of "nothing to do with".