Jpbg: Philip what y'all are over looking is that in language there are statements that can be taken deferent ways depending on the way you read it, and then there are statements that can only mean one thing.
That verse could mean A. That God would run them into the ground getting what he wonted from them whether they wonted to do Gods will or not or B. That he had confidence in the fact that God would continue His work in them to the end because he felt that they were strong Christians that would not give up.
The problem you have with taking Paul's statement in your way is A) he plainly states WHY he has a confidence in their salvation and B) his ONLY basis for that confidence is that the Lord Who began the work would COMPLETE it! Period. There's no effort of man that one can possibly read into that statement.
Jpbg: RickD I believe that one who does not believe in Jesus as there savior is an unbeliever and that is as far as the bible defines them which leads me to believe that is enough.
Of course! A believer is always defined in Scripture as one who has FAITH in Jesus (or
pre-Christ birth into the world, in the promises of God - of Whom Christ is a part - but of Whom was yet to come, ) - and not mere knowledge, like that of the Devil, Judas, the chattering crowds of Jerusalem.
Jpbg, of all you have argued, you have not been able to substantiate that some who merely have KNOWLEDGE of Christ, who even for awhile (and maybe even a LONG while) APPEAR to talk the talk, take part in Christian ACTIVITIES, claim to be a BEliever, have actually ever had a true, committed/submitted faith in Jesus. There is an enormous difference. These are those that God says He will one day say, "I never knew you." The Holy Spirit never resided in these people. So all you saw that made them APPEAR to be Christians would be on the OUTSIDE.
Again, you did not address my question about God intimately knowing hearts and minds now AND in the FUTURE. Does God TEMPORARILY save - and WHY, knowing people are ultimately going to reject Him? That presents and enormous problem with what you are asserting. The question is: Did a person who APPEARS to have embraced Christ EVER truly have FAITH? As well, YOU apply a addition to what Scripture teaches prolifically, that faith in Christ is the ONLY way to salvation. But you are saying it requires Jesus PLUS one's ability to persevere to the end.
So you've added a human beings effort to their salvation. And yet, you should know that NO effort of man has one thing to do with one being saved, OTHER THAN, RECEIVING a free, unearnable gift - HOW - through FAITH!
Notice Romans 10:9: "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord
AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you
WILL be saved. Jpbg, it doesn't say that a person doing/having faith in what this says is necessary has a TEMPORARY effect - it doesn't say they ARE saved (in the moment), but, to echo Paul's confidence we discussed, it states they "WILL" be saved. Also, as for the qualifier of a TRUE believer: "
AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you
. There is mere intellectual belief, and a saving belief of the heart. Different things, with vastly different end results.
Funny how in Scripture, all of this back and forth Jpbg insists is possible (some are saved, later they aren't, perhaps later they will be again) - this is completely absent, without even ONE clear statement that such an assertion is true. That reveals you are reading into words what is not clearly stated, and that what IS clearly stated, per the Scriptures I've discussed, are the definitive truths of the matter.
