Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[Philip]

Really, how many dead horses can we beat here???!!! At the end of the day - rather, of one's life - they either have faith in Christ or they do not. End of story! God knows ALL. We can't. There is a reality to this. WE can either believe what Scripture says about it, or we can read all kinds of meanings into it that it NEVER definitively says. And that should be a huge question mark for those asserting certain things. Works don't save. Work's can't ALWAYS be seen. One who APPEARS to be a Christ but later appears to have abandoned God - do we know the truth of either A) whether he was EVER saved, or B) if he's merely had a crisis of doubt, yet in which he still has faith. God judges based upon FAITH that, at death, one either has or does not. This endless debate - really, unless someone has something NEW to add that hasn't been redundantly discussed, I truly do not see the further point!

[crochet1949]

Amen and AMEN

[RickD]

Philip wrote:
Really, how many dead horses can we beat here???!!! At the end of the day - rather, of one's life - they either have faith in Christ or they do not.

So, you're against osas and the eternal security of a believer.

You agree with Jpbg, that it only matters if one believes at the moment of death.

[Philip]

So, you're against osas and the eternal security of a believer.

You agree with Jpbg, that it only matters if one believes at the moment of death.

Really???!!!

[RickD]

So, you're against osas and the eternal security of a believer.

You agree with Jpbg, that it only matters if one believes at the moment of death.

Really???!!!

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. You did say that at the end of one's life, they either have faith in Christ or they do not.

And that's what Jpbg believes. It doesn't matter if one believed in Christ before. It only matters if they believe at the very moment they die.

[Philip]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. You did say that at the end of one's life, they either have faith in Christ or they do not.

And that's what Jpbg believes. It doesn't matter if one believed in Christ before. It only matters if they believe at the very moment they die.

Anyone reading my posts on this knows better.

How about, BY the end of ones life, at SOME point, they either had developed faith, or they had not. NOT: They might have had it, then they didn't, then, they got it again, but - oops - they happened to die in one of their many periods of having no faith - pity. Or, they got lucky and had faith during their dying breath. That's Jpbg. His trick: You must die at the right time, during a period in which have faith - as that faith might go away.

Again, one more redundancy!

[Jac3510]

At the end of the day - rather, of one's life - they've either had faith in Christ or they've not.

There, Phil. FTFY. Now you have a true statement with only minimal edits to your original phrasing.

You're welcome.

[bbyrd009]

as long as your faith consists of your beliefs, you are doomed, ok? satan also believes, and trembles.
Find out what "Love believes all things" means.

and "faith without works is dead," of course; you must have works, don't let anyone kid you there.

[B. W.]

Yes and my works prove to everyone and me my self that I am indeed saved.

Not quite...

The fruit that one is saved is found in Hebrews 12:7 8.

By this, we know we are his and belong to him.

During a bible study this question came up: how do we know if we are saved?

The answers varied, like they do hear on this forum. By our works, deeds, spiritual disciplines, etc and etc.

One person was really troubled. He was born again several years ago but became more confused by all the comments. Then the group asked me.

My response was this: "I know for a fact that I am saved because I have been to God's woodshed enough times to know he will never let me go... how about you?"

With this, he laughed and became relieved as did the group.

Jpbg33, have you been to God's woodshed - chastened by the Lord?

That is the only way to honestly know. If chastened by the Lord, did he let you get away with sin - No.

Also and likewise the Lord will chasten one if he or she walks away from him as well and in this process they will return to him later on and are saved to the uttermost.

Those who never are chastened, Heb 12:8, were never his and if such denied faith; then, they were never saved to begin with. Only two kinds of people in God's eyes: Children of Wrath and his own adopted Children whom he disciplines.

Jpbg33 you are not stronger than God and neither is your concept of God's love superior to God's love.

Hebrews 12:8 tells us how we know who are is and who is not.
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[bbyrd009]

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

ergo, wadr, anyone assuring you of your salvation is not telling the truth.

[RickD]

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

ergo, wadr, anyone assuring you of your salvation is not telling the truth.

You just ripped Matthew 24:13 out of its context, and assumed sōzō refers to eternal salvation, with absolutely no warrant.

And then called believers liars, if they don't hold to you're cherry picked verse.

[bbyrd009]

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

ergo, wadr, anyone assuring you of your salvation is not telling the truth.

You just ripped Matthew 24:13 out of its context, and assumed sōzō refers to eternal salvation, with absolutely no warrant.

And then called believers liars, if they don't hold to you're cherry picked verse.

hmm, probably. the verse never needed context in my mind, and reading the surrounding vv did not seem to provide any, any additional, at least. So, could you show me how i have cherry picked here, or twisted the context? (i've used this for years, and you are the first person to raise this objection; which i find compelling )

[Jac3510]

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

ergo, wadr, anyone assuring you of your salvation is not telling the truth.

You just ripped <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%2024.13" data-reference="Matt 24.13" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Matthew 24:13</a> out of its context, and assumed sōzō refers to eternal salvation, with absolutely no warrant.

And then called believers liars, if they don't hold to you're cherry picked verse.

hmm, probably. the verse never needed context in my mind, and reading the surrounding vv did not seem to provide any, any additional, at least. So, could you show me how i have cherry picked here, or twisted the context? (i've used this for years, and you are the first person to raise this objection; which i find compelling )[/quote
Are you open to doing just a bit of reading? If so, check out the following two papers. It answers the question you are asking Rick and puts its importance in a much larger context you may find helpful and interesting:

https://faithalone.org/journal/2002i/anderson.pdf
https://faithalone.org/journal/2002ii/anderson.pdf

[bbyrd009]

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

ergo, wadr, anyone assuring you of your salvation is not telling the truth.

You just ripped Matthew 24:13 out of its context, and assumed sōzō refers to eternal salvation, with absolutely no warrant.

And then called believers liars, if they don't hold to you're cherry picked verse.

also, i know many, many believers who would not presume to tell people if they are lost or saved, wadr--not saying that you cannot, of course, or even that you should not.

[bbyrd009]

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

ergo, wadr, anyone assuring you of your salvation is not telling the truth.

You just ripped <a class="rtBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Matt%2024.13" data-reference="Matt 24.13" data-version="nasb95" data-purpose="bible-reference" target="_blank">Matthew 24:13</a> out of its context, and assumed sōzō refers to eternal salvation, with absolutely no warrant.

And then called believers liars, if they don't hold to you're cherry picked verse.

hmm, probably. the verse never needed context in my mind, and reading the surrounding vv did not seem to provide any, any additional, at least. So, could you show me how i have cherry picked here, or twisted the context? (i've used this for years, and you are the first person to raise this objection; which i find compelling )[/quote
Are you open to doing just a bit of reading? If so, check out the following two papers. It answers the question you are asking Rick and puts its importance in a much larger context you may find helpful and interesting:

https://faithalone.org/journal/2002i/anderson.pdf
https://faithalone.org/journal/2002ii/anderson.pdf

sure, i'll check them out, but i am suspicious of any argument not made from the Book. We'll see.