Covert Narcissistic Personality Disorder prevalent in Church Leadership

[Jac3510]

Jesus Christ = Son of God. Not simply another prophet -- but He Did fulfill the role Of a prophet because He foretold His own death, burial and bodily resurrection.
Moses was a type of Christ.

Jesus was a prophet (indeed, THE prophet) and an apostle (indeed, THE apostle). Don't make yourself look ridiculous by suggesting he isn't and then trying to make that sound defensible. Perhaps you were inarticulate in the point you were trying to make and the actual words you used were wrong and conveyed the wrong idea?

And for the record, a prophet isn't just someone who predicts the future, meaning that Jesus was a prophet on account of predicting his own death/burial/resurrection. A prophet, rather, is one who speaks for God. That is exactly what Jesus did, whether He told the future or not (and He did a lot of that, even beyond speaking of His death/burial/resurrection). Likewise, an apostle is one sent, specifically one sent by God. "Apostle" is just a Greek word bought into English. The Greek word is apostello, meaning, "I send." Jesus refers to Himself A LOT as having been "sent" by God. The Twelve apostles were only apostles, then, because Jesus Himself was the true apostle.

[abelcainsbrother]

Jesus Christ = Son of God. Not simply another prophet -- but He Did fulfill the role Of a prophet because He foretold His own death, burial and bodily resurrection.
Moses was a type of Christ.

Jesus and Moses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Upwpszpc30

[crochet1949]

Jesus Christ = Son of God. Not simply another prophet -- but He Did fulfill the role Of a prophet because He foretold His own death, burial and bodily resurrection.
Moses was a type of Christ.

Jesus was a prophet (indeed, THE prophet) and an apostle (indeed, THE apostle). Don't make yourself look ridiculous by suggesting he isn't and then trying to make that sound defensible. Perhaps you were inarticulate in the point you were trying to make and the actual words you used were wrong and conveyed the wrong idea?

And for the record, a prophet isn't just someone who predicts the future, meaning that Jesus was a prophet on account of predicting his own death/burial/resurrection. A prophet, rather, is one who speaks for God. That is exactly what Jesus did, whether He told the future or not (and He did a lot of that, even beyond speaking of His death/burial/resurrection). Likewise, an apostle is one sent, specifically one sent by God. "Apostle" is just a Greek word bought into English. The Greek word is apostello, meaning, "I send." Jesus refers to Himself A LOT as having been "sent" by God. The Twelve apostles were only apostles, then, because Jesus Himself was the true apostle.

Okay -- good point. On other Forums there are those who would equate Jesus Christ being a prophet as well as Muhammad --putting them on the same level. That's why I was reacting the way I was.

So , you're right.

[crochet1949]

Jesus Christ = Son of God. Not simply another prophet -- but He Did fulfill the role Of a prophet because He foretold His own death, burial and bodily resurrection.
Moses was a type of Christ.

Jesus and Moses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Upwpszpc30

Good try with the YouTube. I'm not into the noise.

[JButler]

Several Studies are out now. One from Canada suggest statistically that 1 out of 5 Pastors have what is called a Covert Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

If this is true, then have you encountered one?

The Covert type is different from the Overt Type. They are more subtle but just as dangerous. Under the leadership of either these types stain the name of Jesus and cause many good people to leave the Establishment churches.

I have encountered both types. For more info - here are two articles. There are more so feel free to researh on your own too.

Covert Narcissistic Personality Disorder prevalent in Church Leadership

PDF from Study on Clergy and Narcissistic Personality Disorder

1 out of 5 is a large number no matter how you cut it when it comes to clergy. however, the other 4 in many cases are sincere christian leaders following Jesus mixed in with others of various degrees of sincerity toward Jesus.

Not here to bash anyone but help expose what needs exposed.

It appears to me that many people attend bible colleges, then unleashed as pastors/clergy having no real life experience of skills in dealing with the reality of people and all their issues. In other words, many become pastors that are not fit to be due to the emotional baggage they hold on too.

Please do research on this topic and if you find yourself in such a place run by one of these covert types or overt types - head for the hills...

Again have you encounter such leadership in church or even on the Job?
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When you first posted this I couldn't really think of any pastors that fit the description, at least on a personal level.

But I was thinking along the TV celeb types which we know who they are. Thinking this morning I suddenly realized the actions and attitude of pastors we had really fit the mold. They loved to condemn and use the pulpit to attack those who disagreed with them. Name calling in meetings with church leaders who resisted. They had a condescending superiority attitude that wasn't clear to me until now.

But all of them fell in disgrace in sex scandals which some supporters in church leadership tried to cover up.

One question......do you blindly trust your salvation to a pervert?

Scary thought. Its a risk you run when you follow a man over the Bible.

[bbyrd009]

Describe the 'ideal pastor/evangelist'.

i like the point that i imagine you were trying to make, here--and, frankly, view "Jesus" as a cop-out answer, wadr to all--and am led to say, in defense of the +- 80%, that way too much is, by and large, expected of pastors in Western Christianity.

When one has a mortgage, and enough people demanding answers to questions that cannot be answered by anyone, no matter how learned in Scripture they are, such as "how can i be sure?" then, naturally, a "pastor" has been put in a position, admittedly of their own making, but regardless.

Your pastor is not your priest, and was never supposed to be.

Your Congregation is not the Church, and was never supposed to be.

The Bible offers no assurance of salvation, no matter who lied to you and told you that It did, and if you just bring that "blessed assurance" verse here, this will become apparent, i am sure.

[crochet1949]

Describe the 'ideal pastor/evangelist'.

i like the point that i imagine you were trying to make, here--and, frankly, view "Jesus" as a cop-out answer, wadr to all--and am led to say, in defense of the +- 80%, that way too much is, by and large, expected of pastors in Western Christianity.

When one has a mortgage, and enough people demanding answers to questions that cannot be answered by anyone, no matter how learned in Scripture they are, such as "how can i be sure?" then, naturally, a "pastor" has been put in a position, admittedly of their own making, but regardless.

Your pastor is not your priest, and was never supposed to be.

Your Congregation is not the Church, and was never supposed to be.

The Bible offers no assurance of salvation, no matter who lied to you and told you that It did, and if you just bring that "blessed assurance" verse here, this will become apparent, i am sure.

What does "wadr" mean?
You commented about 'Western Christianity" -- where are you from? Possibly Middle Eastern country?

Jesus Christ is our High Priest -- we have access to God Through Jesus Christ. But -- there Are spiritual gifts -- and pastor/teacher is one of them. A pastor is to be looking to God for what he presents to the congregation of believers. Believers are to reach out to their neighbors / friends with salvation. There Should be spiritual growth seen in the congregation of believers. People who Congregate to hear Scripture taught and to worship God.

The Church is the local body of believers who come together. There is Also the universal church made up of All people who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

The subject of eternal security / once saved always saved has been discussed in a couple of other threads.

The book of Ephesians ch.2
Romans 10:9 - 10 " That is you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" , and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with y our mouth that you confess and are saved. ......Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord Will Be Saved."

[bbyrd009]

Describe the 'ideal pastor/evangelist'.

i like the point that i imagine you were trying to make, here--and, frankly, view "Jesus" as a cop-out answer, wadr to all--and am led to say, in defense of the +- 80%, that way too much is, by and large, expected of pastors in Western Christianity.

When one has a mortgage, and enough people demanding answers to questions that cannot be answered by anyone, no matter how learned in Scripture they are, such as "how can i be sure?" then, naturally, a "pastor" has been put in a position, admittedly of their own making, but regardless.

Your pastor is not your priest, and was never supposed to be.

Your Congregation is not the Church, and was never supposed to be.

The Bible offers no assurance of salvation, no matter who lied to you and told you that It did, and if you just bring that "blessed assurance" verse here, this will become apparent, i am sure.

What does "wadr" mean?

With All Due Respect, as the briefest search would affirm, sorry. guess i should type it out here, lol.

You commented about 'Western Christianity" -- where are you from? Possibly Middle Eastern country?

no, i am a Western Christian, been Oneness Pentecostal for the last 20 years or so.

Jesus Christ is our High Priest -- we have access to God Through Jesus Christ. But -- there Are spiritual gifts -- and pastor/teacher is one of them. A pastor is to be looking to God for what he presents to the congregation of believers. Believers are to reach out to their neighbors / friends with salvation. There Should be spiritual growth seen in the congregation of believers. People who Congregate to hear Scripture taught and to worship God.

that is one pov, yes; another is that all Priests should be Shepherds, in the manner of Abel.

Your "model" pastor has, undoubtedly, signed up for a 501(6) c3(6),
and claims these monetary benefits via a form 1023(6), am i right?

The Church is the local body of believers who come together.

i disagree, wadr.

There is Also the universal church made up of All people who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

there is only one Church, wadr, and we would surely differ about what "accepting Christ" means, especially if you got your definition from the guy who signed the Contract for Jesus, no offense meant. As an example, i'm sure you hold that a Muslim is "lost," regardless of the statement in Scripture that "any spirit that acknowledges that Christ has come in the flesh is from God," and the many acknowledgements in the Qur'an for Christ, and even "one must follow Christ or be doomed" there, as well as several other admonishments of this nature. Yes?

The subject of eternal security / once saved always saved has been discussed in a couple of other threads.

by people who are assured of their salvation by those who have signed Contracts for Jesus? And what, may i ask, was the conclusion? ty

The book of Ephesians ch.2
Romans 10:9 - 10 " That is you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" , and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with y our mouth that you confess and are saved. ......Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord Will Be Saved."

So, a model is presented wherein Christ may be accepted with one's mouth, and the "believe" part--which is actually not talking about "beliefs" there, but "faith," is just kind of assumed, or disregarded, or relegated to an inferior role--as are "works" of course, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, which i'm sure you are aware of--and so anyone who does not talk like you is then "lost," disregarding that the Hebrews left Egypt Free Men, too, but none of them made it to the Promised Land, save for 2.

And also disregarding that Christ has many Names, Christ is a Spirit, Christ is Word, and Word is not "the Bible," so iow Christ represents a Concept that no pastor can explain to you--that being "Word," Paul's historical (for him, anyway) account of "meeting Him in the Air," that you are assured is the "Rapture," some future event, even though Ezekiel already denounced that @ "pillows" {"soft landings," iow}, and it only re-emerged in the late 19th Century, again from a "woman," both times, proffered by "women," even though you do not accept "women" as pastors, but what the heck, we can make exceptions, sometimes, am i correct there?

So, see what you will see, and i do not mean to be condemning here, ok? You have beliefs, i have some other beliefs, and neither are "faith." Beliefs are pretty much irrelevant, they are strictly a framework for faith that should grow over time, and be discarded in favor of new "beliefs" (after all, none of us knows where they came from, or where they are going, right?) even satan believes, etc. As you are reflecting, you might ponder why you have almost surely never, in your life, had Songs quoted at you, in all of your pastoral indoctrination?

Don't find Love, until you are ready

or at best has misrepresented to you, in good faith, because It was misrepresented to him, but one hairball at a time
(and please feel free to demand proof of any of this, any time you like, from Scripture, i certainly would).

[crochet1949]

Lands sakes -- talk about ATTITUDE. I've not heard That kind of attitude in a while. Hopefully not everyone in your group of Oneness Pentecostals come across like you do.

I'm a conservative Independent Baptist.

[Philip]

Bbyrd: no, i am a Western Christian, been Oneness Pentecostal for the last 20 years or so.

So, does that mean that you:

Deny the Trinity? Believe that baptism is a necessary part of salvation, and also that one must be baptized ONLY by immersion - that if you are not baptized, you cannot be saved? Oh, and that the baptism must be stated to be "In Jesus’ name" rather than "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" which is mentioned in Matt. 28:19? And, does the baptism have to be carried out by an ordained minister of a church that maintains oneness theology (United Pentecostal, United Apostolic, etc.)? Are only those who speak in tongues saved? Salvation can be lost?

Bbyrd, the above is typical of Oneness Pentecostal beliefs - do these reflect your own beliefs?

[bbyrd009]

Lands sakes -- talk about ATTITUDE. I've not heard That kind of attitude in a while. Hopefully not everyone in your group of Oneness Pentecostals come across like you do.

I'm a conservative Independent Baptist.

ah, well, i apologize, really, i have no attitude on this, and recognize that there are other valid perspectives, as i perhaps kind of showed at our discussion on America. Wherein i guess i conflated Trump with Hitler, but did not mean to denigrate Trump. The point being that i love my nation, too, but i am surrounded by "Christian Patriots," who don't seem to understand why their country is melting, and everyone is turning gay, and their children are suddenly rife with autism and cancer, or sterile as they reach child bearing years.

So please understand i seek to elicit hard questions, to examine them, not condemn.

[bbyrd009]

Bbyrd: no, i am a Western Christian, been Oneness Pentecostal for the last 20 years or so.

So, does that mean that you:

Deny the Trinity?

of course not; they even have a flag, and this flag represents those to whom you likely pledge your allegiance

and then wish to establish some other Trinity, a doctrine, and i would like to ask you why you feel this doctrine is so essential? What fruit comes of it, iow? ty

(the problem with giving you direct answers here, i hope you understand, is that you are going to hear them from your position, and we are not going to be reasoning, together, with the Book. So please keep this in mind, in my short answers, and if you would also recognize that we are discussing "beliefs," which are not "faith," and that i am prepared to defend each of my answers with the Book)

Believe that baptism is a necessary part of salvation, and also that one must be baptized ONLY by immersion - that if you are not baptized, you cannot be saved? Oh, and that the baptism must be stated to be "In Jesus’ name" rather than "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" which is mentioned in Matt. 28:19? And, does the baptism have to be carried out by an ordained minister of a church that maintains oneness theology (United Pentecostal, United Apostolic, etc.)?

um. you refer to "ritual" baptisms, rituals, which, again, when examined can be shown to bear no fruit, wadr. I did all of those though, yes. I even got re-baptized, the "correct" way, with the "right" things being spoken, disregarding my uneasiness at the time. yes. But i suggest to you that there is another way to understand those passages, that are not about any dead rituals, that bear no fruit, but are instead life-affirming, wadr.

there are 3 baptisms, that imo your single ritual one just obfuscates. Those you have "correctly" baptized are now led to believe that they have been baptized, and they are done being baptized, yes?

Are only those who speak in tongues saved?

that is an OP understanding, based upon an interpretation of Acts 2:38, that i do not hold, and can demonstrate quite easily from the Book is not being practiced as at the Advent of the early Church. Not sure your position there, but i do believe in a type of SiT, that is not glossololia, and i consider it a gift, not a requirement, although i am able to also reconcile it with Acts 2:38.

Salvation can be lost?

were the Wanderers, who walked out of the Blood-covered door, and out of Egypt, Free Men, who then went on to perish in the Wilderness, "saved," or not?

Bbyrd, the above is typical of Oneness Pentecostal beliefs - do these reflect your own beliefs?

so, no.

[bbyrd009]

https://www.facebook.com/filmsforaction ... 179575983/

[bbyrd009]

Lands sakes -- talk about ATTITUDE. I've not heard That kind of attitude in a while. Hopefully not everyone in your group of Oneness Pentecostals come across like you do.

I'm a conservative Independent Baptist.

ah, well, i apologize, really, i have no attitude on this, and recognize that there are other valid perspectives, as i perhaps kind of showed at our discussion on America. Wherein i guess i conflated Trump with Hitler, but did not mean to denigrate Trump. The point being that i love my nation, too, but i am surrounded by "Christian Patriots," who don't seem to understand why their country is melting, and everyone is turning gay, and their children are suddenly rife with autism and cancer, or sterile as they reach child bearing years.

So please understand i seek to elicit hard questions, to examine them, not condemn.

[crochet1949]

Lands sakes -- talk about ATTITUDE. I've not heard That kind of attitude in a while. Hopefully not everyone in your group of Oneness Pentecostals come across like you do.

I'm a conservative Independent Baptist.

ah, well, i apologize, really, i have no attitude on this, and recognize that there are other valid perspectives, as i perhaps kind of showed at our discussion on America. Wherein i guess i conflated Trump with Hitler, but did not mean to denigrate Trump. The point being that i love my nation, too, but i am surrounded by "Christian Patriots," who don't seem to understand why their country is melting, and everyone is turning gay, and their children are suddenly rife with autism and cancer, or sterile as they reach child bearing years.

So please understand i seek to elicit hard questions, to examine them, not condemn.

You Also tend to put yourself on a different / somewhat Higher level than other people. You sound like someone who has come To the United States from another country and have settled in Florida -- like thousands of others have. 'Their' country is melting, etc. IF that is happening -- it's Probably because a Few people in this Society have chosen to take Prayer out of schools and choose to disregard the Bible / God's authority/ guidelines. The Christian segment of this country were not up-front enough to take a Louder verbal stand FOR their Biblical beliefs. We sort of stood back and couldn't believe it was Happening. This country was founded upon Biblical principles and no one thought that would change. And Now we are fighting to be heard.

Not 'everyone' is turning 'gay'. Cancer Has become much more common for a variety of reasons.

As my counselor has stated -- this is a fallen world -- negative stuff Does happen. And that which we Do have control over is how we respond. When someone Does treat me poorly, how do I respond Back. How often do "I" consider 1st - what would Jesus Christ do in this situation ?"

This country is not perfect -- because no one alive is perfect. But I'd rather live Here than any other country.