Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[bbyrd009]

ya, i'll need either a synopsis (with supporting Scripture), or a Witness (Scriptural refute), wadr. ty

no offense to this..."Anderson" was it? intended.

[Jac3510]

ya, i'll need either a synopsis (with supporting Scripture), or a Witness (Scriptural refute), wadr. ty

*shrug*

You're choice. If you can't take the time to read twelve pages of plain, mostly non-technical English, then I don't have much basis to be confident that you intend honest conversation. And in that case, I have far better things to do with my time. Maybe Rick will have more patience for you.

[bbyrd009]

ya, i'll need either a synopsis (with supporting Scripture), or a Witness (Scriptural refute), wadr. ty

*shrug*

You're choice. If you can't take the time to read twelve pages of plain, mostly non-technical English, then I don't have much basis to be confident that you intend honest conversation. And in that case, I have far better things to do with my time. Maybe Rick will have more patience for you.

wadr, i have waded through 3 pages, and have yet to find the first Scripture even mentioned, and also i think all eschatology is crap, wadr. Prognostication, condemned by Scripture imo. sorry. I will be equally suspicious of any argument longer than 2 paragraphs, short paragraphs, simply on principle.

[bbyrd009]

ya, i'll need either a synopsis (with supporting Scripture), or a Witness (Scriptural refute), wadr. ty

*shrug*

You're choice. If you can't take the time to read twelve pages of plain, mostly non-technical English, then I don't have much basis to be confident that you intend honest conversation. And in that case, I have far better things to do with my time. Maybe Rick will have more patience for you.

i do hope you understand? you might even provide a conclusion, that i could then find the relevant Scripture for, possibly? But right now, this just isn't adequate for my "little kid" test.

[RickD]

Here's an explanation of the context. For some reason, the link isn't allowing me to post it as a URL, so I copied and pasted it.
https://bible.org/question/does-matt-24 ... s-security

Does Matt. 24:13 conflict with free grace salvation and the believer’s security?

“But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved” (Matt 24:13).

The word “saved” must always be understand in its context. Saved from what and by what means? “Saved” is the Greek sozo which may refer to any kind of deliverance and should often be simply translated “delivered.” It can refer to physical deliverance or to some kind of spiritual deliverance, but the context is the determining factor. In point of fact, this passage is speaking about physical deliverance or the survival of those who last through the judgments of the tribulation. Note the comments below from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.

24:9-14 (Mark 13:9-13; Luke 21:12-19). Jesus began His words (Matt. 24:9) with a time word, Then. At the middle point of the seven-year period preceding Christ’s second coming, great distress will begin to be experienced by Israel. The Antichrist, who will have risen to power in the world and will have made a protective treaty with Israel, will break his agreement at that time (Dan. 9:27). He will bring great persecution on Israel (Dan. 7:25) and even establish his own center of worship in the temple in Jerusalem (2 Thes. 2:3-4). This will result in the death of many Jews (Matt. 24:9) and many people departing from the faith. Believing Jews will be betrayed by nonbelievers (v. 10), and many will be deceived by rising false prophets (cf. v. 5; Rev. 13:11-15). Wickedness will increase, causing the love of most people (for the Lord) to grow cold.


Those who are believers and who survive until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth. This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17.

[Jac3510]

Ah, and he does!

[crochet1949]

I tried the link and it wouldn't cooperate so I appreciate the explanation.

And 12 pages Are a Lot to read.

[jpbg33]

Postby B. W. » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:44 am
jpbg33 wrote:
Yes and my works prove to everyone and me my self that I am indeed saved.


Not quite...

The fruit that one is saved is found in Hebrews 12:7 8.

By this, we know we are his and belong to him.

During a bible study this question came up: how do we know if we are saved?

The answers varied, like they do hear on this forum. By our works, deeds, spiritual disciplines, etc and etc.

One person was really troubled. He was born again several years ago but became more confused by all the comments. Then the group asked me.

My response was this: "I know for a fact that I am saved because I have been to God's woodshed enough times to know he will never let me go... how about you?"

With this, he laughed and became relieved as did the group.

Jpbg33, have you been to God's woodshed - chastened by the Lord?

That is the only way to honestly know. If chastened by the Lord, did he let you get away with sin - No.

Also and likewise the Lord will chasten one if he or she walks away from him as well and in this process they will return to him later on and are saved to the uttermost.

Those who never are chastened, Heb 12:8, were never his and if such denied faith; then, they were never saved to begin with. Only two kinds of people in God's eyes: Children of Wrath and his own adopted Children whom he disciplines.

Jpbg33 you are not stronger than God and neither is your concept of God's love superior to God's love.

Hebrews 12:8 tells us how we know who are is and who is not.

That is not how we know we are saved. Sinners have bad things happening to them all the time because of sin they have done. With that logic maybe everyone is saved they just don't know it until they understand that they are just being chastened by God.

One other bum problem with that is the fact that the only way you could know if you are saved that way is to sin. A Christians assurance is not based on there sin.

So according to you we must sin to know we are saved.



Lets look at one of the verse you used to get this. It says If ye endure chastening. What if you are saved and you do not endure chastening. It dose not say you will endure so you might not endure. What happened to the Christians that do not endure?

Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 

So you wont to know how we know we are saved? The bible tells us in plan English.

1Jn 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 
1Jn 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 
1Jn 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 

[bbyrd009]

Those who are believers and who survive until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13).

ah; so some future tribulation, some mass event, in some undefined future, then, right?

This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth.

so, you seek Christ's physical return, yet you also state that you are the Body of Christ?

This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17.

so then, martyrs are condemned, the "tribulation" is some future, worldwide, calamitous event, and the Kingdom is not, in fact, very near you, as Christ and God both plainly state? ty

[RickD]

Those who are believers and who survive until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13).

ah; so some future tribulation, some mass event, in some undefined future, then, right?

This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth.

so, you seek Christ's physical return, yet you also state that you are the Body of Christ?

This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17.

so then, martyrs are condemned, the "tribulation" is some future, worldwide, calamitous event, and the Kingdom is not, in fact, very near you, as Christ and God both plainly state? ty

See, you can begin to understand if you simply put your mind to it!

[RickD]

I tried the link and it wouldn't cooperate so I appreciate the explanation.

And 12 pages Are a Lot to read.

It is the article in the link, quoted in its entirety.

[crochet1949]

I tried the link and it wouldn't cooperate so I appreciate the explanation.

And 12 pages Are a Lot to read.

It is the article in the link, quoted in its entirety.

What happened to the 12 pages

[RickD]

I tried the link and it wouldn't cooperate so I appreciate the explanation.

And 12 pages Are a Lot to read.

It is the article in the link, quoted in its entirety.

What happened to the 12 pages

Sorry for the confusion. The links in Jac's post were longer. Mine was the link with a non-functioning URL.

[bbyrd009]

Those who are believers and who survive until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13).

ah; so some future tribulation, some mass event, in some undefined future, then, right?

This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth.

so, you seek Christ's physical return, yet you also state that you are the Body of Christ?

This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17.

so then, martyrs are condemned, the "tribulation" is some future, worldwide, calamitous event, and the Kingdom is not, in fact, very near you, as Christ and God both plainly state? ty

See, you can begin to understand if you simply put your mind to it!

sure, and are willing to accept Mansions in the Sky, instead of Nests (in the Air), and Rapture instead of Word, and belief in a Snake on a Pole, Nehushtan ("Christ, and Him crucified," is i believe the current most pop phraseology) over service to a Risen Lord, and are willing to put off the kingdom until tomorrow, or yesterday, or any TimePlace but HereNow, and, and, and, and, and, which are all necessary to maintain the illusion that God is out to get you, RickD, and continue to ignore the implications of "Who told you that you were naked?" as well as It's many Witnesses, 15If anyone attacks you, it is not from Me; 1Do not judge others, and you will not be judged, etcetc.


11Look, all you who kindle a fire, who encircle yourselves with firebrands <who are these people, RickD?>; walk in the light of your fire and in the firebrands you have lit! This is what you'll get from My hand: you will lie down in a place of torment.

Where is the fire, RickD?
Won't you try to assure me that the fire is with satan, in hell, someday, almost surely probably?
And that i better fear it?
God is the All~Consuming Fire, bro.

i suggest you fear God, Who plainly states that you are going to reap what you sow,
so that being true, it would not surprise me even a little bit to see millions, billions of people
get their Mansions in the Sky, where no wind blows, and they are all gritting their teeth.

[bbyrd009]

Let's all sing it, shall we?


Delta Dawn
what's that flower
you have on?
could it be a faded rose?
from days gone by?

And did i here you say
He was ameetin' you
hear today
to take you to His
Mansion in the Sky?