Understanding the Trinity

[bbyrd009]

and i will tell you that i have asked this prolly 100 times, of 100 different people, and you know what, Rick? I have never gotten an answer, not once.

I have gotten ridiculed, dismissed, called names, banned, you name it--but i have never gotten a single reply, to this simple request that is not asked from "Why?" but is supposedly an "essential Christian doctrine" in its own right--unlike your trinity understanding, which is not, wadr. Not considered an "essential Christian doctrine" at all, Rick--it is just one of your beliefs, one of your sacred cows, ok?

[bbyrd009]

So, what is the fruit of this "trinity" doctrine?

and there is fruit, don't think there isn't.

it serves a purpose.

one, single purpose, that i am aware of.

[RickD]

"congratulations. Well done!"

Bbyrd,

Please stop. If you want to argue against essential Christian doctrine, please go somewhere else.

ok, but if i want to assert what Christ confirms, every time He opens His mouth, and prays to Father, and that "God is the head of Christ," not "Christ is God," where do i go for that?

So i'll ask again, can you witness the fruit of your trinity doctrine? What is the advantage, iow? How does the trinity doctrine serve you? Never mind the interpretations, that i will even grant you have Witnesses for, if you like. What is the fruit, Rick?

so, who gets to define "essential Christian doctrine?" you? well, i respectfully disagree, ok. Show me the test, the real test, the fruit.

If you want to learn more about the Trinity, then search for one of the many threads we have on the doctrine. If you're here to argue against essential Christian doctrines, please do it somewhere else. The conversation about this is done here. I ask you to respect the rules and the moderating at this forum.

you once again posit "essential Christian doctrine" though, Rick, when i am just here to add to "Understanding the Trinity," which i am just now asking for the fruit of, not asking from "Why?" at all, see, just attempting to reason with you, Rick.

Is asking for the fruit of this doctrine wrong, somehow?

If you want to understand the doctrine, no, it's not wrong. But I don't get the feeling that you have any intention of trying to understand it.

[bbyrd009]

Bbyrd,

Please stop. If you want to argue against essential Christian doctrine, please go somewhere else.

ok, but if i want to assert what Christ confirms, every time He opens His mouth, and prays to Father, and that "God is the head of Christ," not "Christ is God," where do i go for that?

So i'll ask again, can you witness the fruit of your trinity doctrine? What is the advantage, iow? How does the trinity doctrine serve you? Never mind the interpretations, that i will even grant you have Witnesses for, if you like. What is the fruit, Rick?

so, who gets to define "essential Christian doctrine?" you? well, i respectfully disagree, ok. Show me the test, the real test, the fruit.

If you want to learn more about the Trinity, then search for one of the many threads we have on the doctrine. If you're here to argue against essential Christian doctrines, please do it somewhere else. The conversation about this is done here. I ask you to respect the rules and the moderating at this forum.

you once again posit "essential Christian doctrine" though, Rick, when i am just here to add to "Understanding the Trinity," which i am just now asking for the fruit of, not asking from "Why?" at all, see, just attempting to reason with you, Rick.

Is asking for the fruit of this doctrine wrong, somehow?

If you want to understand the doctrine, no, it's not wrong. But I don't get the feeling that you have any intention of trying to understand it.

i can only tell you honestly, since i do not make promises, that i am not asking from "Why?" ok. How bout we give this a day, to allow others to come here, and Witness the fruit of trinity, from the Book, or witness it from personal experience. then we'll see. and BAM, start us off, if you like.

[Storyteller]

I find it really, really hard to explain the Trinity. I kinda "feel" it though, instinctively "know" it, it's just putting it into words.

The fruit of this doctrine? Me.

I believed in God the Father because I was filled with the Holy Spirit and through that came to know Christ.
The Trinity at work.

[bbyrd009]

then believe that as long as it serves you, ok, but recognize that this is not really much of an answer, wadr. Bring a Witness, or some real fruit, iow. Specific fruit, as your fruit might be attributed to other things (and in fact, usually is, wadr); faith in God, etc, which i do not dispute.
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and don't pretend it doesn't serve you, ok, the fruit is plain, how it serves you is as obvious as the arrow is, to the Moose, alright https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcqZ_9Ga6GY&t=7s

skip ahead to 2:22 or so,

and how does one make YT vids come to life, here, btw?

[bbyrd009]

although i can admit that you have actually, in a roundabout way, pointed to the fruit.

[B. W.]

Isaiah 46:5, Deut 33:26, and Isaiah 46:9 all express there is none like God.

Isaiah 46:5 God tells this about himself, "To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? " NASB

This means that God's Oneness is not like, nor can it be compared to the limited human concept of oneness at all. period.

God's oneness is unlike anything we can fully grasps. We may explore and uncover it in the bible and in nature but to fully grasp it - well - for now impossible to fully grasp.

Oneness Pentecostal concept of God reduces God's oneness into a form of oneness equal to to making God like any other form of oneness.

Now according to my understanding of oneness people many variations of teaching on this is: That God revealed himself as the Father in the Old Testament (OT). Then next, God revealed himself as Jesus. Then finally God reveal himself as the Holy Spirit.

So that you end up discovering that name of the God Father is Jesus, the name God is Jesus, and the name Holy Spirit is Jesus. In other words, God uses three names which reads like this: The Father Jesus Christ who appeared in the OT as the Father.

Appeared as the Lord Jesus Christ to deal with the sin issue, etc...

And is now known as the Lord Holy Spirit Jesus Christ...

Rather confusing but that is as simple as I can express all the variations of oneness Pentecostalism teaching on the subject.

Therefore, Oneness Pentecostals must wrestle with this:

Who did Jesus pray to in heaven while on earth?

If Jesus was pretending, or even using a form of ventriloquism, then that is dishonesty on God's part, an untruth, which if correct would mean God lies or tells untruths about who he really is.

That is why Oneness Pentecostalism falls into error as they do indeed make God alike one who lies...and is is dishonest

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[bbyrd009]

what i kind of don't get is, that is called "Oneness," but isn't that the same message the Trinnies have? "Jesus is God?" So it strikes me as a repeat of the "Rebuplican or Democrat?" thing, wherein both can be seen to be the same thing; the illusion of choice seems to be going on, iow.

[bbyrd009]

ok, but if i want to assert what Christ confirms, every time He opens His mouth, and prays to Father, and that "God is the head of Christ," not "Christ is God," where do i go for that?

So i'll ask again, can you witness the fruit of your trinity doctrine? What is the advantage, iow? How does the trinity doctrine serve you? Never mind the interpretations, that i will even grant you have Witnesses for, if you like. What is the fruit, Rick?

so, who gets to define "essential Christian doctrine?" you? well, i respectfully disagree, ok. Show me the test, the real test, the fruit.

If you want to learn more about the Trinity, then search for one of the many threads we have on the doctrine. If you're here to argue against essential Christian doctrines, please do it somewhere else. The conversation about this is done here. I ask you to respect the rules and the moderating at this forum.

you once again posit "essential Christian doctrine" though, Rick, when i am just here to add to "Understanding the Trinity," which i am just now asking for the fruit of, not asking from "Why?" at all, see, just attempting to reason with you, Rick.

Is asking for the fruit of this doctrine wrong, somehow?

If you want to understand the doctrine, no, it's not wrong. But I don't get the feeling that you have any intention of trying to understand it.

i can only tell you honestly, since i do not make promises, that i am not asking from "Why?" ok. How bout we give this a day, to allow others to come here, and Witness the fruit of trinity, from the Book, or witness it from personal experience. then we'll see. and BAM, start us off, if you like.

So then, no one can specifically describe the fruit of Trinity doctrine, when asked? I mean, there is no wrong answer, so what is the deal? And of course i am just in error to characterize...storyteller's? was it? explanation as being inadequate or something, i didn't mean that--i had just hoped to elicit more details, or a more concise description, that could more easily be attributed specifically to

"the fruit of the Trinity doctrine."

doesn't this speak volumes to you Trinity people?
this one, rather vague (no offense) witness to a doctrine that you seemed so passionate about, until yesterday?
or have we just not allowed enough time to pass, for witnesses of any fruit, to come forward?
is the silence here deafening, or is that just me? ty

[jenna]

If you want to learn more about the Trinity, then search for one of the many threads we have on the doctrine. If you're here to argue against essential Christian doctrines, please do it somewhere else. The conversation about this is done here. I ask you to respect the rules and the moderating at this forum.

you once again posit "essential Christian doctrine" though, Rick, when i am just here to add to "Understanding the Trinity," which i am just now asking for the fruit of, not asking from "Why?" at all, see, just attempting to reason with you, Rick.

Is asking for the fruit of this doctrine wrong, somehow?

If you want to understand the doctrine, no, it's not wrong. But I don't get the feeling that you have any intention of trying to understand it.

i can only tell you honestly, since i do not make promises, that i am not asking from "Why?" ok. How bout we give this a day, to allow others to come here, and Witness the fruit of trinity, from the Book, or witness it from personal experience. then we'll see. and BAM, start us off, if you like.

So then, no one can specifically describe the fruit of Trinity doctrine, when asked? I mean, there is no wrong answer, so what is the deal? And of course i am just in error to characterize...storyteller's? was it? explanation as being inadequate or something, i didn't mean that--i had just hoped to elicit more details, or a more concise description, that could more easily be attributed specifically to

"the fruit of the Trinity doctrine."

doesn't this speak volumes to you Trinity people?
this one, rather vague (no offense) witness to a doctrine that you seemed so passionate about, until yesterday?
or have we just not allowed enough time to pass, for witnesses of any fruit, to come forward?
is the silence here deafening, or is that just me? ty

ok, bbyrd, i think it probably best for you to just drop the subject. no one is going to be able to give you the answers you are seeking. you will just go around and around and beating your head against a wall, believe me. all it will do is get you banned

[bbyrd009]

alrighty then, ty, i appreciate it.

[B. W.]

what i kind of don't get is, that is called "Oneness," but isn't that the same message the Trinnies have? "Jesus is God?" So it strikes me as a repeat of the "Rebuplican or Democrat?" thing, wherein both can be seen to be the same thing; the illusion of choice seems to be going on, iow.

As I stated, we can get a hint of God's unique oneness that is far different than our human concept of oneness is by what Paul wrote in Romans 1:19,20 - note Verse 20 NASB:

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse...."

Living organism's are made in unique way that give clues to beginning to grasp the nature of God's oneness such as an Orange.

There is the orange peal, the fruit inside, the Orange juice.

These three are all 100 percent orange they all have the same 100 per cent essence of orange-ness. They are all co-equal, share the same properties of orange-ness, yet each is One Orange.

The difference seen in the orange is in function, not differing parts, but in function. For example, the peal has its functional personality of holding it together, the fruit has its own functional personality in that it produces seed, and the juice has its functional personality in that it establishes life. Each is all 100 per cent one orange.

This formation is what Paul is alluding to in Romans 1:20 that is seen in nature that gives hints into God's monogenesis, meaning His one of a kind nature that people choose to distort.

God is One God, true. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are 100 percent God they all have the same 100 per cent essence of God-ness. They are all co-equal, share the same properties, yet each is still One God - not three - but one.

The difference seen in function, not differing parts, but in function. For example, the God the Father's functional personality of giving life and direction, etc. The Son's functional personality is in that he produces seed, creates, does the task, and the Holy Spirit has functional personality in that he establishes - empowers life - gives form as task. Each is 100 per cent one God.

In the Old Testament, this is brought out in abundance, yet folks choose not to see it and thus Romans 1:21,22,23 results.

Luke 20:37, 38 stae this truth about God: "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB.' 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." NKJV

God is the Living God.

This means all his One essence has ability too live to carry out living task being one God. Isaiah 53:1-12 mentions this...

This is how and why Jesus prayed to the Father when he was on earth to show forth the redemptive act for humanity.

Jesus was not dishonest, not would he act like he was praying to someone not there in heaven. Did not teach people to pray like this in Matthew 6:9-13

Mat 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father who is me on earth, Hallowed be my name.
My kingdom come. my will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For mine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever.
Amen.

But rather taught people to pray:

Mat 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Thus is how and why Philippians 2:1-11 says what it says about who Jesus is - Isaiah 53:1
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Suggest you take the time to focus on this before responding...

[bbyrd009]

me? responding? you gotta be kidding, right. i'll hold out for some witness of the fruit, wadr, ty.

[jenna]

me? responding? you gotta be kidding, right. i'll hold out for some witness of the fruit, wadr, ty.

now wait just a minute. this is your response? really? after all that b.w. and the others went through to try to explain what they believe in and to answer everything you have asked?