Rob Bell AFTER Hell

[jenna]

yes i still hold to the same belief. I was wondering how long it would take for you to come around. good to see you again. and i do not agree with Jac, as in when a person dies, they are dead. thats it, until they are resurrected. they dont go immediately anywhere. if they did, then there would be no need whatsoever for a resurrection.

Thank you Jenna for clarifying that as I know time can change points of view.

Nice to hear from you again as it has be awhile!

What specifically from Jac's post do you not agree with?
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Jac believes that when a person dies they immediately go to purgatory (hades/hell) to await judgement, and the saved go immediately to heaven. i disagree, since i believe when someone dies they are dead, and no nothing until they are resurrected. if they are immediately sent somewhere upon death, then what is the point of being resurrected?

[B. W.]

yes i still hold to the same belief. I was wondering how long it would take for you to come around. good to see you again. and i do not agree with Jac, as in when a person dies, they are dead. thats it, until they are resurrected. they dont go immediately anywhere. if they did, then there would be no need whatsoever for a resurrection.

Thank you Jenna for clarifying that as I know time can change points of view.

Nice to hear from you again as it has be awhile!

What specifically from Jac's post do you not agree with?-

Jac believes that when a person dies they immediately go to purgatory (hades/hell) to await judgement, and the saved go immediately to heaven. i disagree, since i believe when someone dies they are dead, and no nothing until they are resurrected. if they are immediately sent somewhere upon death, then what is the point of being resurrected?

Jac is not teaching there is a purgatory as that doctrine stresses a a punishment to earn salvation method which is not scriptural. However I grasp what you are saying nevertheless.

Therefore,

Jenna, do you recall this old post which I just now reedited a bit more for clarity?

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... A5#p128106

I don't see your point in anything that you gave.
David is not in heaven, Enoch, Elijah...etc. the bible is clear about this.

Can't be any plainer...

Look again at Eccl 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.”

Explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun – in other words they do not come back to this planet. This mortal life under the sun they'll know nothing about any more. Think of it another way - the movies have it all wrong - Freddie Kruger and Jason the killers can’t come back to life for revenge…

I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not. How many people lived in ancient times or even 200 years ago? Are not their thoughts and dreams forgotten? No memory of them remains. Unless there were famous and even then, time moves on and their history will fade too. That is what Eccl 9 and Ps 37 and 88 refer too...

That is what Eccl 9:1-6 is revealing. We who are still mortally alive will forget the dead and their lives forgotten by us. That is the context of Psalms 37:1-20 and Psalms 89 as well. Ps 37 refers to the wicked becoming no more on earth. The memory of such vanishes from those who are alive in the flesh as time passes.

In Fact, Ezekiel 32:19-32 describes the cognizant fate of those who caused woe in the land of the living as soldiers in the bad part of Sheol/Hell’s pit. They did not vanish from God’s sight but only ours. For example, we who are alive in the flesh right now have no memory of the name of the head charioteer in Pharaohs’ army, do we?

Or the names of Ottoman Turks who butchered Christians during WW 1 – do we?

So, like smoke, the wicked are no more, memory of them vanishes here on earth, but in Hell, there they remain, cognizant…there eternal spirit (shade) still alive.

Bible passages that suggest that the unrighteous dead are no more, or vanish, are applied to the realm of mortal living. It is from the flesh/blood mortal world that they are no more part of and vanish from.

Psalms 37:20 is easily taken out of context from context Psalms 37:1-2 begins with, which speaks of the wicked being cut off from this mortal flesh and blood life. Such cannot return from the dead to continue to cause harm.

This Psalms does not say what happens after they are cut off from the land flesh/blood mortal living.

The book of Job records the same sentiments… see verse 9 and note context pertains to mortality.

Job 7:8 "The eye of him who sees me will behold me no longer; Your eyes will be on me, but I will not be."
Job 7:9 "When a cloud vanishes, it is gone, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up."
Job 7:10 "He will not return again to his house, nor will his place know him anymore."
Job 7:11 "Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul." NASB

...Bible explains bible in This: after one dies comes judgment Hebrews 9:27. This conveys that a person’s spiritual essence, the real them, continues on either with the Lord ( 2 Corinthians 5:6c) or banished forever away from the Lord. In the banished place, they are cognizant as Job 26:5, Ezekiel 26:20, Ezekiel 32:19-32, Luke 16:19-30, Matthew 25:41, 46 speaks of.

To imply that this does not happen, denies the verses that clearly speak of everlasting contempt, recompense, to the wicked and produces contradiction.

Note on the Psalms 37:20 NET translation from the NET version uses a poor choice of words. The word translated incinerate is not in the text but was implied by the translators. The word is the Hebrew is kālāh – consume, vanish, complete failing: it is a verb which means to complete, to accomplish regarding end, finish, or failing. Its primary meaning implies to consummate, to bring to completion – not incineration.

Kālāh is used twice in the text but not place next to each other as the verb word die is used in Genesis 2:17 and 3:4 (shall die-die) for emphatic definition. But rather smoke is place between the two words. Emphatic incineration is not implied because a word separates from the other Kālāh by a noun (smoke). The meaning changes to the wicked meeting their just end in this mortal life, and vanish from it: Nothing to do with the state of the afterlife they’ll face.

Go back to verse 1 and 2 for context as it points to how such things (the evil wicked) are being viewed from a mortal perspective only concerning how they failed/rebelled/etc… and thus meet their mortal end. This stresses a mortal perspective summed up as:

They’ll vanish from mortal life and thus forgotten by those mortals living in the future.

That is all it means

Do you see these points?
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[jenna]

I do see your points, and i do agree with the possibility that after they are burned up, and will no longer be remembered. but again, you leave out verses like Ecc. 9:5 where it says the dead know not anything. if they know nothing, what is the point of eternal suffering? there is no point to it if they dont know it. there is also verses Psalm 146: 3-4, and 115:17. if the dead are in eternal torment, then explain what these verses mean?

[RickD]

B. W.,

I think Jenna denies that we are spiritual beings, temporarily inhabiting a perishable body. That, I believe is part of why she believes when people die, they're just dead, and know nothing.

But I'm sure she can explain her views, if she wants.

[jenna]

B. W.,

I think Jenna denies that we are spiritual beings, temporarily inhabiting a perishable body. That, I believe is part of why she believes when people die, they're just dead, and know nothing.

But I'm sure she can explain her views, if she wants.

sure i can explain my views, it is because i go by what the bible says. i dont take from it nor do i add to it. and it DOES plainly state that the dead know nothing

[RickD]

B. W.,

I think Jenna denies that we are spiritual beings, temporarily inhabiting a perishable body. That, I believe is part of why she believes when people die, they're just dead, and know nothing.

But I'm sure she can explain her views, if she wants.

sure i can explain my views, it is because i go by what the bible says. i dont take from it nor do i add to it. and it DOES plainly state that the dead know nothing

What about the part regarding us being spiritual beings? Any thought on that?

[jenna]

B. W.,

I think Jenna denies that we are spiritual beings, temporarily inhabiting a perishable body. That, I believe is part of why she believes when people die, they're just dead, and know nothing.

But I'm sure she can explain her views, if she wants.

sure i can explain my views, it is because i go by what the bible says. i dont take from it nor do i add to it. and it DOES plainly state that the dead know nothing

What about the part regarding us being spiritual beings? Any thought on that?

we will not be spiritual beings until Christ makes us so after the resurrection. until then we are fallible, mortal humans. (John 5: 28-29)

[PaulSacramento]

First off, before we start establishing doctrine by what is said in ONE part of the bible, we must KNOW what the writer of that part is stating, to whom and why.
Sometimes we can know this and other times we can't.
Ecclesiastes is viewed as being written by Solomon at a time when he was becoming aware of his many mistakes ( hence it is a bit depressing at times). It was written to enlighten future generations.
To address the futility of seeking after foolish, meaningless, materialistic emptiness, and to offer wisdom by discovering truth in seeking after God.

The tone of the "dead know nothing" is in that light.

Also, in the very same book, we have the explicit statement that:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the [e]spirit will return to God who gave it.

It is explicit that after we die, our spirit returns to God.

[jenna]

First off, before we start establishing doctrine by what is said in ONE part of the bible, we must KNOW what the writer of that part is stating, to whom and why.
Sometimes we can know this and other times we can't.
Ecclesiastes is viewed as being written by Solomon at a time when he was becoming aware of his many mistakes ( hence it is a bit depressing at times). It was written to enlighten future generations.
To address the futility of seeking after foolish, meaningless, materialistic emptiness, and to offer wisdom by discovering truth in seeking after God.

The tone of the "dead know nothing" is in that light.

Also, in the very same book, we have the explicit statement that:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the [e]spirit will return to God who gave it.

It is explicit that after we die, our spirit returns to God.

yes, but one must consider the fact that the spirit and the soul are not the same thing. our spirit is the breath that makes us alive. our soul is who we are as a person. the breath of life (spirit) returns to God when we die, and He gives it back when we are resurrected.

[PaulSacramento]

First off, before we start establishing doctrine by what is said in ONE part of the bible, we must KNOW what the writer of that part is stating, to whom and why.
Sometimes we can know this and other times we can't.
Ecclesiastes is viewed as being written by Solomon at a time when he was becoming aware of his many mistakes ( hence it is a bit depressing at times). It was written to enlighten future generations.
To address the futility of seeking after foolish, meaningless, materialistic emptiness, and to offer wisdom by discovering truth in seeking after God.

The tone of the "dead know nothing" is in that light.

Also, in the very same book, we have the explicit statement that:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the [e]spirit will return to God who gave it.

It is explicit that after we die, our spirit returns to God.

yes, but one must consider the fact that the spirit and the soul are not the same thing. our spirit is the breath that makes us alive. our soul is who we are as a person. the breath of life (spirit) returns to God when we die, and He gives it back when we are resurrected.

Our spirit is JUST our breath ??

[jenna]

First off, before we start establishing doctrine by what is said in ONE part of the bible, we must KNOW what the writer of that part is stating, to whom and why.
Sometimes we can know this and other times we can't.
Ecclesiastes is viewed as being written by Solomon at a time when he was becoming aware of his many mistakes ( hence it is a bit depressing at times). It was written to enlighten future generations.
To address the futility of seeking after foolish, meaningless, materialistic emptiness, and to offer wisdom by discovering truth in seeking after God.

The tone of the "dead know nothing" is in that light.

Also, in the very same book, we have the explicit statement that:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the [e]spirit will return to God who gave it.

It is explicit that after we die, our spirit returns to God.

yes, but one must consider the fact that the spirit and the soul are not the same thing. our spirit is the breath that makes us alive. our soul is who we are as a person. the breath of life (spirit) returns to God when we die, and He gives it back when we are resurrected.

Our spirit is JUST our breath ??

our spirit is what makes us have life. it comes from God, and returns to Him when we die. He then gives it back to us at the resurrection. it is separate from the soul.

[PaulSacramento]

So every living thing has a spirit?
Is the spirit personal or just "breath" or a "force"?

[jenna]

So every living thing has a spirit?
Is the spirit personal or just "breath" or a "force"?

yes, every living thing has a spirit. i dont know exactly what you mean by force? maybe breath is the wrong word to use, but spirit is what makes us alive.

[PaulSacramento]

So every living thing has a spirit?
Is the spirit personal or just "breath" or a "force"?

yes, every living thing has a spirit. i dont know exactly what you mean by force? maybe breath is the wrong word to use, but spirit is what makes us alive.

So animals have a spirit? trees and plants, all have spirits given to them by God?

[jenna]

So every living thing has a spirit?
Is the spirit personal or just "breath" or a "force"?

yes, every living thing has a spirit. i dont know exactly what you mean by force? maybe breath is the wrong word to use, but spirit is what makes us alive.

So animals have a spirit? trees and plants, all have spirits given to them by God?

animals have a spirit, yes. (Ecc. 3:21 ) as far as trees and plants, those are not living CREATURES. they are not alive in the same sense as you and i are.