160 Dead as church collapses.

Silvertusk · Post by **Silvertusk** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:32 am

I believe in an Omni-benevolant God, but sometimes it is hard to see what is plan is when something like this happens.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 68006.html

Silvertusk.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:49 am

Silvertusk wrote:I believe in an Omni-benevolant God, but sometimes it is hard to see what is plan is when something like this happens.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 68006.html

Silvertusk.

First let me say how awful that is.

And second, I'm not sure how God gets the blame when it was human error, possibly negligence.

Silvertusk · Post by **Silvertusk** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:05 pm

I wasn't blaming God Rick. It just makes you pause at times to wonder what his plan is.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:52 pm

Silvertusk wrote:I wasn't blaming God Rick. It just makes you pause at times to wonder what his plan is.

When I look at my own life, I constantly wonder what His plan is.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:35 pm

Without being snarky, what makes you think God had a plan here?

neo-x · Post by **neo-x** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:34 am

I rather think it's probably our misplaced sense of trust in the notion that these things can't happen to people praying in a church, as it seems so odd regarding the kind of faith we have in a personal God. Or as commonly preached in a God who - reaches to us every day through scripture, feelings, visions, dreams, prayer, pastors, church etc.

Post by **Philip** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:56 pm

Jac: Without being snarky, what makes you think God had a plan here?

Um, ALLOWING an action or event can be incorporated into a LARGER plan's purposes, even though other things, people and variables are the DIRECT cause of such things - especially for One omnipotent that knows all things about the future.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:46 pm

You're well aware that just because something can be the case doesn't mean that it is.

Post by **Philip** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:15 pm

Can ANYTHING occur that is outside of God's sovereign will? Are their not hierarchies that play out in time within His will? As in, he hates sin, but allows it - if for a time. Etc. IS God sovereign?

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:06 pm

Of course nothing happens outside of his will, and of course God is sovereign. I don't really understand what you mean by "hierarchies that play out in time within his will." And yes, God allows sin for a time. The Bible addresses that rather clearly. What any of that has to do with a church falling down and killing 160 people and that being a part of some plan God has, though, is beyond me. Would you care to elaborate on that point?

Post by **Philip** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:45 pm

Jac: Of course nothing happens outside of his will, and of course God is sovereign.

And yes, God allows sin for a time. The Bible addresses that rather clearly.

Good, good - just making sure

.

Jac: I don't really understand what you mean by "hierarchies that play out in time within his will."

Exactly what I referred to - as we live in real time, and so God's purposes play out in our physical world over time. God hates sin - doesn't want us to sin. So, the fact that He CURRENTLY allows us actions that He doesn't, on one hierarchy (in time) want, simultaneously He has purposes for temporarily allowing it - and so He does. Of course, when we divvy up God's will FROM A HUMAN perceptions of time AND purposes, it's not an accurate portrayal of God as He truly is - because He simply IS: ENTIRELY unchanging, is of ONE will, ONE collective purpose, of ONE collective knowledge of all knowable things, ALL of these things He is and encompasses, ALL at ONCE. But, to us, this things and His purposes play out over time, and unknowably, and, to us, in often disconcerting and troubling ways - like the church collapsing. Humans: What were the purposes? Why? How could God..., etc., etc. Did He cause it? Again, why, WHY. The only things we can conclude is that the God revealed in Scripture had full knowledge that collapse would happen, of all impacts, here and eternally, both "good" and "bad," and that He easily could have prevented it, but chose not to - but for purposes we cannot know. Asking why, so often, seems just a pointless if torturous question.

And 100 years from now - if those people had all lived - most would nonetheless all be dead anyway, having arrived at their eternal designations - just as they would have if they'd all lived to old age. So, God knowing the entirety of peoples' hearts and minds - whether any of those of spiritually hard hearts would ever have softened, had they lived, or not, knowing perfectly all those answers - these people did not leave the planet prematurely FROM GOD'S PERSPECTIVE. It is only from our finite eyes that early death is so tragic. Of course, for those that will be unsaved, all deaths are tragic. And God says he takes no pleasure in people dying unsaved.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:55 pm

I get that you can say that God allows things to happen for reasons we can't know. That's a pretty common point. My point is more basic. What makes you think God has a reason for everything or for any particular thing? I'm concerned such a view puts God under a sort of obligation, as if there are "rules" He has to live by. It doesn't matter if He designed those "rules" Himself. The whole if/then process presumes that God is constrained.

Seems to make a lot more sense to me to just deny that such things have a purpose at all. Why did it happen? Just because. Whatever physical reason you want to point out--an earthquake knocked the building down or whatever. Why did God allow that? No reason. The world is just operating as normal. Sometimes we get bumped and bruised in that process. Now, that God can choose to use some (or any, or all) of those bruises for our good, which the Bible affirms, is a wonderful thing. But we ought not say that God caused or allowed something to happen so that we could be bruised and so helped. Because that's what "God had a plan" sounds a lot like.

Nope. Better to just acknowledge that there is gratuitous evil. There was no reason. God didn't have any plan.

Post by **Philip** » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:58 pm

Jac: I get that you can say that God allows things to happen for reasons we can't know. That's a pretty common point. My point is more basic. What makes you think God has a reason for everything or for any particular thing? I'm concerned such a view puts God under a sort of obligation, as if there are "rules" He has to live by. It doesn't matter if He designed those "rules" Himself. The whole if/then process presumes that God is constrained.

No, God is under no rules - He simply IS. All He does comes from His will. His will is certainly not to do certain things - He cannot sin - why? - because He IS sinless and perfect. He needs nor follows no rules for Himself. It's like asking whether God could act in opposition to His will or Holy character. He is whatever He is, and whatever and however He has always been.

Jac: Seems to make a lot more sense to me to just deny that such things have a purpose at all. Why did it happen? Just because.

Well, God tells us He does have purposes in mind. But the reason such questions are irrelevant, is that we cannot know what the truth of the matter is - as to the purpose. Really, a lot of people drive themselves nuts wondering why God doesn't act as they think He would or should.

Whatever physical reason you want to point out--an earthquake knocked the building down or whatever. Why did God allow that? No reason. The world is just operating as normal.

Ah, but what is NORMAL? And it could have been created so as to function and play out quite differently. Again, how, when and why things occur and work out as they do are withing the parameters of God's mysterious will. Just allowing things He did not cause still are within His will - else, He would not allow them. Yes or no to what He knows will happen if He does or does not allow it. There WILL be an outcome - one He fully knows and allows.

Jac: Sometimes we get bumped and bruised in that process. Now, that God can choose to use some (or any, or all) of those bruises for our good, which the Bible affirms, is a wonderful thing. But we ought not say that God caused or allowed something to happen so that we could be bruised and so helped. Because that's what "God had a plan" sounds a lot like.

Well, the problem is, again, we just can't know.

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

"ALL things?" He has "a purpose" for those He calls?

Jac: Nope. Better to just acknowledge that there is gratuitous evil. There was no reason. God didn't have any plan.

Well, He most certainly has a RESPONSE that He's ALWAYS known of to whatever thing He's always know about - as to whether He would allow that thing or action to become a reality or not. Call that a plan or whatever you will. But when we are referencing God as if He makes decisions based upon new information or variations in some manner or response that He reconsiders or tweaks - these are the perceptions of finite beings contemplating the infinite.

Jac, do you get to talk much about these kinds of things with your wife? MY wife can't fathom how I find similar topics endlessly fascinating. Yet, a thing will happen, often a tragic one, and THEN she'll ask these kinds of questions. If I try to engage her over philosophy or apologetics, I quickly hear that giant "clacking" sound - eyeballs hitting the back of the skull.

Course, I tend to think of gateway and impasses to faith issues.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:40 pm

Philip wrote:Well, God tells us He does have purposes in mind.

Where?

Jac, do you get to talk much about these kinds of things with your wife? MY wife can't fathom how I find similar topics endlessly fascinating. Yet, a thing will happen, often a tragic one, and THEN she'll ask these kinds of questions. If I try to engage her over philosophy or apologetics, I quickly hear that giant "clacking" sound - eyeballs hitting the back of the skull. Course, I tend to think of gateway and impasses to faith issues.

Haha, we're in the same boat. My wife likes the idea of apologetics and philosophy. Hates to actually talk about it, though. I quit trying to bore her with this stuff about a year into our marriage.

Post by **Philip** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:48 pm

Philip wrote: Well, God tells us He does have purposes in mind.

Where?

Throughout Scripture. The universe has a conclusion and new beginning. Did God have no particular purpose in creating it? How about in creating man - a creature He came to live and die for - was that a purposeless, pointless death? Is there a point to justice? To punishing sin?

Sproul chimes in: http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/purposes-god/

Evidence for God from Science

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