Rob Bell AFTER Hell

[PaulSacramento]

I remember that story, how after his death those that remained looked seriously and without bias into what the bible really said and came to the conclusion that, under Armstrong, their doctrines were wrong.

[B. W.]

I remember that story, how after his death those that remained looked seriously and without bias into what the bible really said and came to the conclusion that, under Armstrong, their doctrines were wrong.

Here is more from Wiki...

Historical Teaching under Armstrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Com ... ernational

Under Armstrong's leadership, the Worldwide Church of God was accused of being a cult with unorthodox and, to most Christians, heretical teachings. Critics also contended that the WCG did not proclaim salvation by grace through faith alone, but rather required works as part of salvation. The late Walter Martin, in his classic The Kingdom of the Cults, devoted 34 pages to the group, claiming that Armstrong borrowed freely from Seventh-Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormon doctrines.Armstrong contended that all Church doctrine could be proven simply and effectively through the Bible, and that one did not need to "accept on faith" any of the Worldwide Church of God's doctrinal beliefs.

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[jenna]

and here is where i end my posts, since obviously you have nothing more to say, except a link from wikipedia, of all places. tell me, did you look up the hoax of armstrong? or maybe "armstrong as cult leader?"

[PaulSacramento]

You know, one of the things that distinguishes people that have "cultist" views is that they do not tolerate having their views being questioned or having their leaders questioned.
Catholics, for example, not only are open to having the Pope questioned but very often do the questioning themselves.
They may not like having their leader questioned or their views BUT they accept that it is part of defending their faith AND, many times, are the ones that question the most !

As someone that we able to resist a cult ( JW's ) I KNOW the allure of "works based salvation", the allure of having someone tell me what I should think so I don't have to do the leg work myself.
I saw it routinely.

See, we can start seeing a pattern when you take a uni formally recognized cult, like Scientology for example, and you start to see the very same things happening in your chosen religion.
You just have to be willing to question, what EVERY NON CULT religion actually ALLOWS !

[jenna]

You know, one of the things that distinguishes people that have "cultist" views is that they do not tolerate having their views being questioned or having their leaders questioned.
Catholics, for example, not only are open to having the Pope questioned but very often do the questioning themselves.
They may not like having their leader questioned or their views BUT they accept that it is part of defending their faith AND, many times, are the ones that question the most !

As someone that we able to resist a cult ( JW's ) I KNOW the allure of "works based salvation", the allure of having someone tell me what I should think so I don't have to do the leg work myself.
I saw it routinely.

See, we can start seeing a pattern when you take a uni formally recognized cult, like Scientology for example, and you start to see the very same things happening in your chosen religion.
You just have to be willing to question, what EVERY NON CULT religion actually ALLOWS !

actually I do tolerate other people's views, do not mind having my views questioned either. I do not have a leader, however. if i did not want my views or opinions questioned, i would never have come here to begin with. however, when someone pulls up a post or link like the one above, merely to say "thats a cult, dont listen to her views" then i find it a bit disheartening to say the least. as far as questioning things, we are told by the bible to "prove all things" and that includes doctrines such as heaven/ hell, among others. your claim that my 'cult" does not allow questioning is bogus.

[PaulSacramento]

Jenna,
My post was a generalized post, not directed to you specifically BUT in reaction to your post about leaving the moment your background was questioned.
Your reaction was typical of people in "cult like religions".

BW's posts was not "don't listen to her, she comes from a cult", BUT were posted to show where your views were seeming to come form.

Views that are, quite obviously, not orthodox.

[jenna]

Jenna,
My post was a generalized post, not directed to you specifically BUT in reaction to your post about leaving the moment your background was questioned.
Your reaction was typical of people in "cult like religions".

BW's posts was not "don't listen to her, she comes from a cult", BUT were posted to show where your views were seeming to come form.

Views that are, quite obviously, not orthodox.

i didnt say i was leaving, i said i wasnt going to post on this anymore. so call it what you will, it really does not matter much. and my background was not just questioned, it was publically denounced as a cult by some kind of link by wiki. instead of going through more research, naturally you get the quickest link that fits your beliefs about what i believe in.

[B. W.]

and here is where i end my posts, since obviously you have nothing more to say, except a link from wikipedia, of all places. tell me, did you look up the hoax of armstrong? or maybe "armstrong as cult leader?"

Stating the facts Jenna.

The Worldwide Church of God indeed split up and the Grace movement took root as the GCI just as Wiki pointed out. I think I mentioned this before that due to the control over peoples lives issue imposed upon the WCG members, when some of the leaders got a hold of God's Grace and who the Lord is - they rejected Armstrong. I know folks who have come out of it who were raised in WCG. Their testimony makes one weep as to how people subject themselves to be completely controlled by control freak authority figures...

Hope you stick around and read and find the Grace of God...

By they way Jenna, the bible indeed states this in Exodus 20:3-5

"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them..." NKJV

Point for you to kindly ponder is this: Have you made Armstrong your Idol, his writings Idols = his teachings ? Is Armstrong above God in your life? Do you serve Armstrong's ideas more than God's? If so, you broke these commandments...
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[jenna]

and here is where i end my posts, since obviously you have nothing more to say, except a link from wikipedia, of all places. tell me, did you look up the hoax of armstrong? or maybe "armstrong as cult leader?"

Stating the facts Jenna.

The Worldwide Church of God indeed split up and the Grace movement took root as the GCI just as Wiki pointed out. I think I mentioned this before that due to the control over peoples lives issue imposed upon the WCG members, when some of the leaders got a hold of God's Grace and who the Lord is - they rejected Armstrong. I know folks who have come out of it who were raised in WCG. Their testimony makes one weep as to how people subject themselves to be completely controlled by control freak authority figures...

Hope you stick around and read and find the Grace of God...

By they way Jenna, the bible indeed states this in Exodus 20:3-5

"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them..." NKJV

Point for you to kindly ponder is this: Have you made Armstrong your Idol, his writings Idols = his teachings ? Is Armstrong above God in your life? Do you serve Armstrong's ideas more than God's? If so, you broke these commandments...
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i do not put Armstrong's teachings above God's. I believe his teachings are from god. there is a huge difference here. God used prophets to speak His words to people, John, Mark, Luke, Amos, Timothy, etc, etc. You asked me before, if I think that you are not Christian because you believe differently than I do. I am now asking you that same question. Are you afraid I am going to go to hell because I do not see the teachings of the bible the same way you do?

[RickD]

Taking this link with a grain of salt, it's Wikipedia, if this is accurate, Armstrong was a fruitcake.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong

Scroll down to his Theology and Teachings.

The very first one listed, should immediately throw up a red flag, as a sign of a cult:

Worldwide Church of God (WCG) members believed that Herbert W. Armstrong was Christ's apostle in the 20th century. Armstrong taught that God only works through "one man at a time" and that he was God's selected representative on earth for his time.

And Armstrong was a judaizer.

Because of his teachings identifying both the primacy of Sabbath and the "identity of modern Israel", Armstrong would come to accept that the Mosaic Law had not been "done away." Although he excluded certain segments he regarded as "already fulfilled", "ceremonial" or otherwise unfit, he taught adherence to the Levitical food regulations and the observance of the "Holy Days" of the Mosaic Law.[75] The Worldwide Church of God taught seven 'Festivals of God' (Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, Last Great Day) and regarded such to be 'worship' days including Sukkot or "Feast of Tabernacles." The latter was practiced by setting up church "conventions" in various cities worldwide to which their various congregations had to attend, leaving homes and booking into hotel-type accommodation. For many, this eight-day festival was a 'highlight' of the year.

[jenna]

Taking this link with a grain of salt, it's Wikipedia, if this is accurate, Armstrong was a fruitcake.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong

Scroll down to his Theology and Teachings.

The very first one listed, should immediately throw up a red flag, as a sign of a cult:

Worldwide Church of God (WCG) members believed that Herbert W. Armstrong was Christ's apostle in the 20th century. Armstrong taught that God only works through "one man at a time" and that he was God's selected representative on earth for his time.

And Armstrong was a judaizer.

Because of his teachings identifying both the primacy of Sabbath and the "identity of modern Israel", Armstrong would come to accept that the Mosaic Law had not been "done away." Although he excluded certain segments he regarded as "already fulfilled", "ceremonial" or otherwise unfit, he taught adherence to the Levitical food regulations and the observance of the "Holy Days" of the Mosaic Law.[75] The Worldwide Church of God taught seven 'Festivals of God' (Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, Last Great Day) and regarded such to be 'worship' days including Sukkot or "Feast of Tabernacles." The latter was practiced by setting up church "conventions" in various cities worldwide to which their various congregations had to attend, leaving homes and booking into hotel-type accommodation. For many, this eight-day festival was a 'highlight' of the year.

well, seeing as how I knew this already, that he kept the Sabbath (Saturday) and also the Holy Days, not real sure what your point is here?

[RickD]

Taking this link with a grain of salt, it's Wikipedia, if this is accurate, Armstrong was a fruitcake.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong

Scroll down to his Theology and Teachings.

The very first one listed, should immediately throw up a red flag, as a sign of a cult:

Worldwide Church of God (WCG) members believed that Herbert W. Armstrong was Christ's apostle in the 20th century. Armstrong taught that God only works through "one man at a time" and that he was God's selected representative on earth for his time.

And Armstrong was a judaizer.

Because of his teachings identifying both the primacy of Sabbath and the "identity of modern Israel", Armstrong would come to accept that the Mosaic Law had not been "done away." Although he excluded certain segments he regarded as "already fulfilled", "ceremonial" or otherwise unfit, he taught adherence to the Levitical food regulations and the observance of the "Holy Days" of the Mosaic Law.[75] The Worldwide Church of God taught seven 'Festivals of God' (Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, Last Great Day) and regarded such to be 'worship' days including Sukkot or "Feast of Tabernacles." The latter was practiced by setting up church "conventions" in various cities worldwide to which their various congregations had to attend, leaving homes and booking into hotel-type accommodation. For many, this eight-day festival was a 'highlight' of the year.

well, seeing as how I knew this already, that he kept the Sabbath (Saturday) and also the Holy Days, not real sure what your point is here?

If you are referring to the second quote, "And Armstrong was a judaizer.", was my point.

If you're unfamiliar with the term:Judaizer

[jenna]

Taking this link with a grain of salt, it's Wikipedia, if this is accurate, Armstrong was a fruitcake.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong

Scroll down to his Theology and Teachings.

The very first one listed, should immediately throw up a red flag, as a sign of a cult:

Worldwide Church of God (WCG) members believed that Herbert W. Armstrong was Christ's apostle in the 20th century. Armstrong taught that God only works through "one man at a time" and that he was God's selected representative on earth for his time.

And Armstrong was a judaizer.

Because of his teachings identifying both the primacy of Sabbath and the "identity of modern Israel", Armstrong would come to accept that the Mosaic Law had not been "done away." Although he excluded certain segments he regarded as "already fulfilled", "ceremonial" or otherwise unfit, he taught adherence to the Levitical food regulations and the observance of the "Holy Days" of the Mosaic Law.[75] The Worldwide Church of God taught seven 'Festivals of God' (Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, Last Great Day) and regarded such to be 'worship' days including Sukkot or "Feast of Tabernacles." The latter was practiced by setting up church "conventions" in various cities worldwide to which their various congregations had to attend, leaving homes and booking into hotel-type accommodation. For many, this eight-day festival was a 'highlight' of the year.

well, seeing as how I knew this already, that he kept the Sabbath (Saturday) and also the Holy Days, not real sure what your point is here?

If you are referring to the second quote, "And Armstrong was a judaizer.", was my point.

If you're unfamiliar with the term:Judaizer

He taught that the 10 commandments and the dietary laws still stand, yes.

[RickD]

Taking this link with a grain of salt, it's Wikipedia, if this is accurate, Armstrong was a fruitcake.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong

Scroll down to his Theology and Teachings.

The very first one listed, should immediately throw up a red flag, as a sign of a cult:

Worldwide Church of God (WCG) members believed that Herbert W. Armstrong was Christ's apostle in the 20th century. Armstrong taught that God only works through "one man at a time" and that he was God's selected representative on earth for his time.

And Armstrong was a judaizer.

Because of his teachings identifying both the primacy of Sabbath and the "identity of modern Israel", Armstrong would come to accept that the Mosaic Law had not been "done away." Although he excluded certain segments he regarded as "already fulfilled", "ceremonial" or otherwise unfit, he taught adherence to the Levitical food regulations and the observance of the "Holy Days" of the Mosaic Law.[75] The Worldwide Church of God taught seven 'Festivals of God' (Passover, Days of Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, Last Great Day) and regarded such to be 'worship' days including Sukkot or "Feast of Tabernacles." The latter was practiced by setting up church "conventions" in various cities worldwide to which their various congregations had to attend, leaving homes and booking into hotel-type accommodation. For many, this eight-day festival was a 'highlight' of the year.

well, seeing as how I knew this already, that he kept the Sabbath (Saturday) and also the Holy Days, not real sure what your point is here?

If you are referring to the second quote, "And Armstrong was a judaizer.", was my point.

If you're unfamiliar with the term:Judaizer

He taught that the 10 commandments and the dietary laws still stand, yes.

And, salvation is by grace, through faith. Not by the necessity of keeping Laws that were never given to Christians to keep.

It's a false gospel of works, like I've been saying.

[jenna]

Taking this link with a grain of salt, it's Wikipedia, if this is accurate, Armstrong was a fruitcake.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong

Scroll down to his Theology and Teachings.

The very first one listed, should immediately throw up a red flag, as a sign of a cult:


And Armstrong was a judaizer.

well, seeing as how I knew this already, that he kept the Sabbath (Saturday) and also the Holy Days, not real sure what your point is here?

If you are referring to the second quote, "And Armstrong was a judaizer.", was my point.

If you're unfamiliar with the term:Judaizer

He taught that the 10 commandments and the dietary laws still stand, yes.

And, salvation is by grace, through faith. Not by the necessity of keeping Laws that were never given to Christians to keep.

It's a false gospel of works, like I've been saying.

again, we are doing nothing more than beating a dead horse (as quoted by B.W and others including myself) Salvation is by grace, through faith in Christ, yes. HOWEVER, true faith requires obedience to God's laws. True righteosness is keeping all God's commandments ( Psalms 119:172 ). We cannot boast that it is our righteousness, however, because it isnt. It is God's righteousness that lives in us. If Christ, by His Grace, erased our guilty past, gave us access to God, and now pours forth into and through us the spiritual love that keeps the Law, this is not our righteousness, but God's.