Scripture!

[RickD]

Why do I feel like I'm living inside the movie, A Beautiful Mind?

[Byblos]

The rest is indecipherable so I will only comment on what I perceive to be the answer to my question.

i would ask what is "indecipherable," could you quote the indecipherable part, we might get some interpretation of it, perhaps. ty.

All of it. I simply don't have the time to flesh it all out to discover its meanings.

The rest is indecipherable so I will only comment on what I perceive to be the answer to my question.

hmm. i would not have put it that way, but the eye is the lamp of the body, after all. So, i would guess that there is a sense in which that is correct, yes.

Let me ask you this then, was Christ God's plan B (actually more like plan N where N - 1 are many minor prophets and a few major ones)? Did God play the dice with our fate, let's try a few prophets and see what happens and if all else fails I will send Christ? Or was it that Christ was THE plan from the beginning?

well, imo Christ was the author, and the plan, from the beginning.

Okay, we're getting somewhere. My next question is, if Christ was the plan all along, then why the long charade of ineffectual prophets that came before him? From our perspective, why is it that all other prophets failed while Christ succeeded? What is it that set him apart from all the rest in the redemptive process?

well, these prior prophets are characterized as "ineffectual" and "failed," when in another light there are acknowledged Types of Christ, even in Scripture, so it might be seen that another way to put that question is perhaps "why did the Law fail?" because after all, the Law came from God, did God change His mind there, etc.

So then, Jesus in the Flesh is presented as the Pinnacle to us, in our culture, and it is this concept that might be (mistakenly) worshipped as Supreme, when Christ is a Spirit, embodied in concepts like "Love your neighbor," and "works unto rebound" (repentance), and "Judge by the fruit," and "Pick up your cross, and follow Me."

And this is prolly the lesson of the parable of the Two Sons (whether someone convinces you that that is only about Jews and Gentiles, or not); if i refuse the accepted list of Laws to be performed to be considered "accepted" by some group, iow say "no, i will not go," but if i then go and work in the vineyard anyway, as opposed to my peer who said "yes, i will go," and do all those things, tick all those boxes, make a Public Confession, and get a ritual Water Baptism, and make sure he is holding his mouth right when he baptizes me, and then do...whatever Spirit baptism ritual is the preferred one, among Us, but then i don't go to the vineyard and work, don't manifest any works unto rebound, while insisting that i "know," prolly, and even getting some paper that assures others that i know, and seeking to convince others that i know, which has now become the proxy for me of "working in the vineyard," perhaps, but of course you can't fool all of the people, all of the time, and it is left up to witnesses to comment upon "who did his father's will?"

So iow Jesus can be set apart, or Christ can, and there is a counterfeit way to worship, that appeals to the ego, and necessarily, always, posits an "us" and a "them," so that "we" can be "us," and then we can (necessarily) "take steps" against "them." With, of course, much Scriptural imprimatur, should one allow the blind to lead there.

And i don't want to be misunderstood; Christ is Lord, and every knee will bow. Now, whether that is perceived as happening right now, all of the time, HereNow, maybe over there a little later, NotNow, or it is perceived as some Eretz-shattering, mind-bending, miraculous single event, in some undetermined future, wherein Christ physically returns, bodily--leaving the actual Body of Christ in somewhat of a bind, it seems to me--and disregarding that "the flesh profits nothing," then, well, that is up to the individual, to see what they will see.

So I go back to my earlier question then as to who you believe Christ is. More precisely, please answer the following (without too much editorializing please):

1) Do you believe Christ is a person? If yes, where is he now?
2) Do you believe in the deity of Christ (though not in the trinity)?

[bbyrd009]

The rest is indecipherable so I will only comment on what I perceive to be the answer to my question.

translation; "i don't really want to face the implications of the rest of your answer, and besides i'm looking for facts, and proof, something i can put my finger on."

[bbyrd009]

Why do I feel like I'm living inside the movie, A Beautiful Mind?

because we have been led to believe that heaven starts someday, when Jesus comes back to get us and take us someplace, and take some other people someplace else, so a humongous, bloody, physical battle can be fought for control of the World, or the Earth, whatever, being as how they are both the same thing to most Christians now anyway. And i am starting from a different premise, so the assumptions are different.

And, i am purposely using a few different words, to force a different perspective, which to you prolly adds to the weirdness, when tbh i am only replacing the words that are most corrupted in the common symbology with other words that are common enough to many believers, when really they all need to be replaced, or at least examined, but if i wrote like that it would be completely incomprehensible.

And since it is a good exercise to do with oneself, i'll just mention that if you replace terms laden with symbology to you, that have become common or profaned by dilution or overuse, or misuse, so that the symbology is not working anymore, with other terms that more closely evoke the proper symbology to you, a private thing you can do, this can aid understanding. It is a simple matter to recognize that all of our terms--Christmas, or honor, or charity (ha just look at what "charity" is getting turned into; "the Clinton Foundation" etc)--get appropriated for other agendas, and we go along for the ride if we are not diligent.

[bbyrd009]

1) Do you believe Christ is a person? If yes, where is he now?

God is the Head of Christ, and we are the Body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is His Name. "Where" is He now is a question that is also asked from a human pov, when the answer is also not going to make much sense from that pov, so i apologize, i really am not meaning to be coy or difficult or anything, but the best answer i can give you from that perspective is "the Son of Man has no place to lay His head."

[bbyrd009]

2) Do you believe in the deity of Christ (though not in the trinity)?

hey, i got no prob with trinity, until it gets harnessed lol. My issue with answering this question is, you were just asking me if Christ was a person, and where Christ is, but of course these questions are not consistent with Christ as God, omnipresent, so to me asking about Christ's deity in this context is just about like asking how do you get dry water lol. Sorry. not meaning to be difficult here.

[Byblos]

1) Do you believe Christ is a person? If yes, where is he now?

God is the Head of Christ, and we are the Body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is His Name. "Where" is He now is a question that is also asked from a human pov, when the answer is also not going to make much sense from that pov, so i apologize, i really am not meaning to be coy or difficult or anything, but the best answer i can give you from that perspective is "the Son of Man has no place to lay His head."

Every question we ask is of course from a human perspective so that is not an answer, although it seems to me what you are saying is that Christ is some symbol represented by his body, the church, us, with God the Father as the head. Would that be accurate? If yes, then I presume you do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, correct?

2) Do you believe in the deity of Christ (though not in the trinity)?

hey, i got no prob with trinity, until it gets harnessed lol. My issue with answering this question is, you were just asking me if Christ was a person, and where Christ is, but of course these questions are not consistent with Christ as God, omnipresent, so to me asking about Christ's deity in this context is just about like asking how do you get dry water lol. Sorry. not meaning to be difficult here.

The question is very consistent from a trinitarian point of view. There is no inconsistency or contradiction in stating Christ is both man and God and that we worship one God. I'm just trying to figure out how close or far away from that your theology falls.

[abelcainsbrother]

28Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock that the Holy Spirit has appointed you to as overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

2. Whether Christ is called God must be determined from John 1:1; John 20:28; 1 John 5:20; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8f, etc.; the matter is still in dispute among theologians

and i doubt we are going to resolve anything today, ok, but my response would be that, chiefly, one shuts themselves off from understanding the verses that i would bring up next, after answering this, and i know from experience that no one would answer, because there is no answer.

So, those verses are, essentially, unavailable to you, you literally read over them, and cannot use them, you have thrown them out, because you hold that Christ is God-

-which does bear fruit for you, don't get me wrong, it bears a very specific fruit, that i notice no one here has spoken-

-when i could easily argue that by this reading, Joan of Arc is also God, having purchased the church, also, just as you are called to do, @ "pick up your cross, and follow Me."

now, here is where i would normally list ten or so verses disputing this view, but as that has never worked yet, in 20 years, and as i am coming to believe all things, slowly but surely, i think i'll stay with my present course, which is to seek the fruit, and stay with my Scripturally bullet~proof understanding, which is not disputed--even by Muslims--that being "God is the Head of Christ," and allow other people, you, to hold whatever beliefs seem right to you.

So, briefly, i do not believe that Christ is God, in one sense, insert appropriate verse here, and i have no problem accepting anyone who does believe that Christ is God, even if it is in that same sense, while yet recognizing the fruit of that.

meaning that as soon as i start getting more specific, and asking you to justify how you can hold that Christ is God the Father, you are going to start...walking right toward me, anyway, aren't you? With your mouth, at least? When it is what is in your heart that matters, anyway, and all i can suggest, and caution, is that the fruit should be witnessed.

Which, it has not been.

So you are just gonna ignore Acts 20:28 that clearly tells us God purchased the church with his own blood. It was not God the father but Jesus that died on the cross purchasing it with his own blood. You're ignoring this in order to believe what you choose to believe,and yet talking about fruit?

yet Joan of Arc, many other martyrs, also purchased their churches, in their time, yes? The point being that you choose to read this one way, to prove your point, while it may have other valid interpretations. Theos is not YHWH, or Elohim, or even Adonai.

You overlook that the trinity is true.

i did not; in fact i openly and repeatedly, now, have stated that i accept anyone holding a Trinitarian view as "accepted." Iow it is not the doctrine that i dispute, but the fruit of that doctrine, the doctrine as practiced. Iow i accept that "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" practically encompass the nature of God for us, humans, here on eretz; but the Trinitarian doctrine does not stop there.

God the Father,the Son/Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one. You are choosing to ignore the evidence to believe what you want to believe because you claim theologians are in dispute?

ah, that was a commentary, from Strong's, not me; i included it because it is self-evident.

Why not just believe what Acts 20:28 says instead of believing what man says? You claim that in John 20:28 when Thomas calls Jesus God that it is not clear if it is referring to YHWH

ah, no, i think it is abundantly clear, that it is not referring to YHWH, and a different intent is meant, and also, one might reflect on this singular statement--no Witness, iow--coming from Thomas, the Doubter. Which does not imo make your pov irrelevant, but should nonetheless be considered for the color it adds.

...but overlook when Jesus said before Moses I AM

which might also be widely misinterpreted, also; after all, Jesus WAS, at that moment; Christ IS, at this moment (unless one is waiting for Him, i guess; then He is not, spiritually speaking), i AM, right now; meaning that AM is emphatic, not a title, wherein "Am" would do fine.

and they took up stones to stone him because he is making himself out to be YHWH/God,because they thought it was blasphemy.So you are not right. The only way to dispute this you imply that the bible contradicts itself and that Dr Luke was wrong.

well, the penalty for blasphemy is stoning; why then was Christ crucified, having been charged with blasphemy? Obviously because the relevant people thought some irrelevant things. Too.

And of course the Bible directly contradicts Itself, in many places, on purpose; not that these apparent contradictions cannot resolve. So, wadr, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good, except the Father" is all the contradiction that i need, at least until it is addressed, which it never has been, by a Trinny, not in 20 years +, although i have several Witnesses waiting in the wings, which i used to list them all, but to what end, when one suffices

Anybody who claims the bible contradicts itself in order to defend their interpretation are not rightly dividing the word of God and they don't have proper understanding. This is why you claim the bible contradicts itself in order to deny the trinity.The bible does not contradict itself so please don't sound like an atheist.

[bbyrd009]

1) Do you believe Christ is a person? If yes, where is he now?

God is the Head of Christ, and we are the Body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is His Name. "Where" is He now is a question that is also asked from a human pov, when the answer is also not going to make much sense from that pov, so i apologize, i really am not meaning to be coy or difficult or anything, but the best answer i can give you from that perspective is "the Son of Man has no place to lay His head."

Every question we ask is of course from a human perspective so that is not an answer,

just as "the flesh profits nothing," yes

although it seems to me what you are saying is that Christ is some symbol represented by his body, the church, us, with God the Father as the head. Would that be accurate?

well, i would not relegate Christ to a symbol, exactly, Christ is Spirit, speaks to you directly with Word, is very real, realer than the bodies we inhabit, etc

If yes, then I presume you do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, correct?

ah, now "Jesus" is a symbol, imo, and we can read that Cornelius collected Jesus' carcass (where the carcass is, there the eagles {vultures} will be gathered), so when you ask me about "bodily resurrections" {3.That which is material (as opposed to spiritual)} i can't help but feel that i am being pulled back into the flesh, to give a flesh answer that will suit flesh humans, that read "σωμα noun - accusative singular neuter soma so'-mah: the body (as a sound whole)," and tend to dismiss the "used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively -- bodily, body, slave," and the "4. ἡ σκιά and τό σῶμα are distinguished as the shadow and the thing itself which casts the shadow" part, see, we are going to get crossed up because you are asking me if Jesus is Christ's body, and did Jesus physically float upwards in that passage we read as a historical event, is Jesus bodily in some place called heaven now, that He physically rose up to, iow He rose in front of witnesses, and if He rose, it follows that He had to stop rising at some point, a physical point, whenever He "arrived" to the physical place where He was headed, by inference, and elimination, that is the symbology of the incident for people, most people, and it does no good, see, to suggest--or demand--that we are the Body of Christ, in the face of all this seemingly insurmountable evidence; it is better to just ask you how both can be true?

So, if Jesus bodily resurrected to heaven, as we can plainly read, then where is the Body of Christ?

and sure, i'm perfectly fine with bodily resurrections, and Christ's Body being in heaven right now, if you are ok acknowledging that you are Christ's Body, and the kingdom is very near to you, and that the plan is for heaven to come here, not for us to go somewhere else, in some undetermined future, after we "die." So, in a sense, yes, the Body is in the Kingdom, right now, amen, only understand that i don't mean what you prolly hear when i say that, ok.

iow "why do you stand there, looking up at the sky?"

2) Do you believe in the deity of Christ (though not in the trinity)?

hey, i got no prob with trinity, until it gets harnessed lol. My issue with answering this question is, you were just asking me if Christ was a person, and where Christ is, but of course these questions are not consistent with Christ as God, omnipresent, so to me asking about Christ's deity in this context is just about like asking how do you get dry water lol. Sorry. not meaning to be difficult here.

The question is very consistent from a trinitarian point of view. There is no inconsistency or contradiction in stating Christ is both man and God and that we worship one God. I'm just trying to figure out how close or far away from that your theology falls.

sure, i get you, and the answer is, how close or far away are you, specifically, from Jesus being bodily in some physical place called "heaven," aka "where you are not," v us guys, the people, being the Body of Christ, right here in Erets, right now (even though not in Kosmos, somehow, even though "omnipresent," which you are wondering right now "wth?" when this is a big clue; but of course to most people earth is in the cosmos now, right, the kosmos is no longer in the erets, is it? As sure as sunrise is the start of a day for us, the earth is now in the cosmos).

dang, i keep trying to answer this with straight words, sorry. What i've erased here you just would not believe lol. One more try. Please don't take this next part personally, i mean it generally. If a person who asks me about Christ's deity is actually worshipping a Snake on a Pole, because they are snakebit, and they are waiting for Jesus to bodily come save them, then my answer is going to be perceived as being transferable to this Jesus, this pov of Jesus--which imo is the point of Trinity doctrine--when that would not be correct imo, so asking "deity?" is just another way to ask "God?" with the end result, the end goal, to make Jesus into God, not to include, but to exclude, with all due respect, anyone who does not say it right--for all intents and purposes--anyone who does not bow to the symbol, Jesus, in the accepted manner.

Those who do not bow to the Snake, iow, are "them," and the rest are "us," although i'm not sure that you will accept this understanding, because i guess it is often read as rejecting that Christ died for our sins or something, which is not what i mean ok. Jesus is the Bread, broken for us, in this sense, and using this analogy, one should not be worshipping the Bread. (However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell)

[bbyrd009]

Anybody who claims the bible contradicts itself in order to defend their interpretation are not rightly dividing the word of God and they don't have proper understanding. This is why you claim the bible contradicts itself in order to deny the trinity.The bible does not contradict itself so please don't sound like an atheist.

please the Book contradicts Itself up the Wazoo, and anyone who tells you there are no unresolved contradictions in the Book is having a little fun with you, that's all. It is a Book of questions, after all. We don't have 1242 different Christian denominations because the Book is full of clear answers that everyone agrees on, now, do we. You might note that i said "apparent" contradictions, and i got about 10 of them on a speed dial, if you think you are ready to take a crack at them, but there are of course many more. Has the intimacy of Atheists to Fundies come out here, lately, or do we need to go over that? that they are both essentially the same guy, i mean.

Now, i'll go look and see if i was using that as an excuse to defend an interpretation, maybe i was, i'll see.~

~ya, you would have to specify the interpretation that you feel i was copping out on there, sorry. You might very well be right, dunno, list it and we'll see. The penalty for blasphemy was stoning, and Christ was crucified, how do you resolve that contradiction?

[Byblos]

1) Do you believe Christ is a person? If yes, where is he now?

God is the Head of Christ, and we are the Body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is His Name. "Where" is He now is a question that is also asked from a human pov, when the answer is also not going to make much sense from that pov, so i apologize, i really am not meaning to be coy or difficult or anything, but the best answer i can give you from that perspective is "the Son of Man has no place to lay His head."

Every question we ask is of course from a human perspective so that is not an answer,

just as "the flesh profits nothing," yes

although it seems to me what you are saying is that Christ is some symbol represented by his body, the church, us, with God the Father as the head. Would that be accurate?

well, i would not relegate Christ to a symbol, exactly, Christ is Spirit, speaks to you directly with Word, is very real, realer than the bodies we inhabit, etc

If yes, then I presume you do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, correct?

ah, now "Jesus" is a symbol, imo, and we can read that Cornelius collected Jesus' carcass (where the carcass is, there the eagles {vultures} will be gathered), so when you ask me about "bodily resurrections" {3.That which is material (as opposed to spiritual)} i can't help but feel that i am being pulled back into the flesh, to give a flesh answer that will suit flesh humans, that read "σωμα noun - accusative singular neuter soma so'-mah: the body (as a sound whole)," and tend to dismiss the "used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively -- bodily, body, slave," and the "4. ἡ σκιά and τό σῶμα are distinguished as the shadow and the thing itself which casts the shadow" part, see, we are going to get crossed up because you are asking me if Jesus is Christ's body, and did Jesus physically float upwards in that passage we read as a historical event, is Jesus bodily in some place called heaven now, that He physically rose up to, iow He rose in front of witnesses, and if He rose, it follows that He had to stop rising at some point, a physical point, whenever He "arrived" to the physical place where He was headed, by inference, and elimination, that is the symbology of the incident for people, most people, and it does no good, see, to suggest--or demand--that we are the Body of Christ, in the face of all this seemingly insurmountable evidence; it is better to just ask you how both can be true?

So, if Jesus bodily resurrected to heaven, as we can plainly read, then where is the Body of Christ?

and sure, i'm perfectly fine with bodily resurrections, and Christ's Body being in heaven right now, if you are ok acknowledging that you are Christ's Body, and the kingdom is very near to you, and that the plan is for heaven to come here, not for us to go somewhere else, in some undetermined future, after we "die." So, in a sense, yes, the Body is in the Kingdom, right now, amen, only understand that i don't mean what you prolly hear when i say that, ok.

iow "why do you stand there, looking up at the sky?"

2) Do you believe in the deity of Christ (though not in the trinity)?

hey, i got no prob with trinity, until it gets harnessed lol. My issue with answering this question is, you were just asking me if Christ was a person, and where Christ is, but of course these questions are not consistent with Christ as God, omnipresent, so to me asking about Christ's deity in this context is just about like asking how do you get dry water lol. Sorry. not meaning to be difficult here.

The question is very consistent from a trinitarian point of view. There is no inconsistency or contradiction in stating Christ is both man and God and that we worship one God. I'm just trying to figure out how close or far away from that your theology falls.

sure, i get you, and the answer is, how close or far away are you, specifically, from Jesus being bodily in some physical place called "heaven," aka "where you are not," v us guys, the people, being the Body of Christ, right here in Erets, right now (even though not in Kosmos, somehow, even though "omnipresent," which you are wondering right now "wth?" when this is a big clue; but of course to most people earth is in the cosmos now, right, the kosmos is no longer in the erets, is it? As sure as sunrise is the start of a day for us, the earth is now in the cosmos).

dang, i keep trying to answer this with straight words, sorry. What i've erased here you just would not believe lol. One more try. Please don't take this next part personally, i mean it generally. If a person who asks me about Christ's deity is actually worshipping a Snake on a Pole, because they are snakebit, and they are waiting for Jesus to bodily come save them, then my answer is going to be perceived as being transferable to this Jesus, this pov of Jesus--which imo is the point of Trinity doctrine--when that would not be correct imo, so asking "deity?" is just another way to ask "God?" with the end result, the end goal, to make Jesus into God, not to include, but to exclude, with all due respect, anyone who does not say it right--for all intents and purposes--anyone who does not bow to the symbol, Jesus, in the accepted manner.

Those who do not bow to the Snake, iow, are "them," and the rest are "us," although i'm not sure that you will accept this understanding, because i guess it is often read as rejecting that Christ died for our sins or something, which is not what i mean ok. Jesus is the Bread, broken for us, in this sense, and using this analogy, one should not be worshipping the Bread. (However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell)

Thank you for the discourse and for your candor. I am quite comfortable leaving the conversation at this juncture.

[bbyrd009]

1) Do you believe Christ is a person? If yes, where is he now?

God is the Head of Christ, and we are the Body of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is His Name. "Where" is He now is a question that is also asked from a human pov, when the answer is also not going to make much sense from that pov, so i apologize, i really am not meaning to be coy or difficult or anything, but the best answer i can give you from that perspective is "the Son of Man has no place to lay His head."

Every question we ask is of course from a human perspective so that is not an answer,

just as "the flesh profits nothing," yes

although it seems to me what you are saying is that Christ is some symbol represented by his body, the church, us, with God the Father as the head. Would that be accurate?

well, i would not relegate Christ to a symbol, exactly, Christ is Spirit, speaks to you directly with Word, is very real, realer than the bodies we inhabit, etc

If yes, then I presume you do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, correct?

ah, now "Jesus" is a symbol, imo, and we can read that Cornelius collected Jesus' carcass (where the carcass is, there the eagles {vultures} will be gathered), so when you ask me about "bodily resurrections" {3.That which is material (as opposed to spiritual)} i can't help but feel that i am being pulled back into the flesh, to give a flesh answer that will suit flesh humans, that read "σωμα noun - accusative singular neuter soma so'-mah: the body (as a sound whole)," and tend to dismiss the "used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively -- bodily, body, slave," and the "4. ἡ σκιά and τό σῶμα are distinguished as the shadow and the thing itself which casts the shadow" part, see, we are going to get crossed up because you are asking me if Jesus is Christ's body, and did Jesus physically float upwards in that passage we read as a historical event, is Jesus bodily in some place called heaven now, that He physically rose up to, iow He rose in front of witnesses, and if He rose, it follows that He had to stop rising at some point, a physical point, whenever He "arrived" to the physical place where He was headed, by inference, and elimination, that is the symbology of the incident for people, most people, and it does no good, see, to suggest--or demand--that we are the Body of Christ, in the face of all this seemingly insurmountable evidence; it is better to just ask you how both can be true?

So, if Jesus bodily resurrected to heaven, as we can plainly read, then where is the Body of Christ?

and sure, i'm perfectly fine with bodily resurrections, and Christ's Body being in heaven right now, if you are ok acknowledging that you are Christ's Body, and the kingdom is very near to you, and that the plan is for heaven to come here, not for us to go somewhere else, in some undetermined future, after we "die." So, in a sense, yes, the Body is in the Kingdom, right now, amen, only understand that i don't mean what you prolly hear when i say that, ok.

iow "why do you stand there, looking up at the sky?"

2) Do you believe in the deity of Christ (though not in the trinity)?

hey, i got no prob with trinity, until it gets harnessed lol. My issue with answering this question is, you were just asking me if Christ was a person, and where Christ is, but of course these questions are not consistent with Christ as God, omnipresent, so to me asking about Christ's deity in this context is just about like asking how do you get dry water lol. Sorry. not meaning to be difficult here.

The question is very consistent from a trinitarian point of view. There is no inconsistency or contradiction in stating Christ is both man and God and that we worship one God. I'm just trying to figure out how close or far away from that your theology falls.

sure, i get you, and the answer is, how close or far away are you, specifically, from Jesus being bodily in some physical place called "heaven," aka "where you are not," v us guys, the people, being the Body of Christ, right here in Erets, right now (even though not in Kosmos, somehow, even though "omnipresent," which you are wondering right now "wth?" when this is a big clue; but of course to most people earth is in the cosmos now, right, the kosmos is no longer in the erets, is it? As sure as sunrise is the start of a day for us, the earth is now in the cosmos).

dang, i keep trying to answer this with straight words, sorry. What i've erased here you just would not believe lol. One more try. Please don't take this next part personally, i mean it generally. If a person who asks me about Christ's deity is actually worshipping a Snake on a Pole, because they are snakebit, and they are waiting for Jesus to bodily come save them, then my answer is going to be perceived as being transferable to this Jesus, this pov of Jesus--which imo is the point of Trinity doctrine--when that would not be correct imo, so asking "deity?" is just another way to ask "God?" with the end result, the end goal, to make Jesus into God, not to include, but to exclude, with all due respect, anyone who does not say it right--for all intents and purposes--anyone who does not bow to the symbol, Jesus, in the accepted manner.

Those who do not bow to the Snake, iow, are "them," and the rest are "us," although i'm not sure that you will accept this understanding, because i guess it is often read as rejecting that Christ died for our sins or something, which is not what i mean ok. Jesus is the Bread, broken for us, in this sense, and using this analogy, one should not be worshipping the Bread. (However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell)

Thank you for the discourse and for your candor. I am quite comfortable leaving the conversation at this juncture.

ah well ok, but none of my questions have been answered?

[Byblos]

Thank you for the discourse and for your candor. I am quite comfortable leaving the conversation at this juncture.

ah well ok, but none of my questions have been answered?

Honesty I don't see the point as our respective theologies are so far apart that I doubt very much answering a few questions would do anything to move the needle. But you were kind enough to answer my questions so I will afford you the same courtesy. If you would do me a favor and repeat your questions I'd be happy to answer them.

[bbyrd009]

well, i'm more curious now how our respective theologies could be very far apart? I serve a risen Lord, believe the kingdom has come, we are getting there step by step, and that every line of the Bible--even those genealogy parts, that seem like just boring lists--is speaking to me, so how can we really be that far apart?

[Byblos]

well, i'm more curious now how our respective theologies could be very far apart? I serve a risen Lord, believe the kingdom has come, we are getting there step by step, and that every line of the Bible--even those genealogy parts, that seem like just boring lists--is speaking to me, so how can we really be that far apart?

It is a first impression solely based on what I was able to surmise from your answers. It's not so much related to the trinity per se, although that's part of it. It is more specifically related to what you believe Christ's nature is (or rather isn't) that's totally foreign to me and how I believe it is revealed in the Gospel. It is very possible I am misjudging you. So go ahead and ask your questions, perhaps that'll be illuminating, to both of us.