Rob Bell AFTER Hell

[RickD]

Jenna,

Time for you to fess up...you invited bbyrd009 here, to make your theology look orthodox, by comparison. Brilliant move, I say.

[RickD]

Interesting, B. W. Now I can add, "false prophet" to my list of Armstrong's cultlike beliefs.

funny how i missed this. but then again, it is as i figured.

I don't know how you could've missed it. His false prophet status is obvious. It took me all of 30 seconds to find that.

[jenna]

Interesting, B. W. Now I can add, "false prophet" to my list of Armstrong's cultlike beliefs.

funny how i missed this. but then again, it is as i figured.

I don't know how you could've missed it. His false prophet status is obvious. It took me all of 30 seconds to find that.

thats ok. i knew far in advance what you would think. I even told you that you would.

[jenna]

Jenna,

Time for you to fess up...you invited bbyrd009 here, to make your theology look orthodox, by comparison. Brilliant move, I say.

yep, you found me out, darn it.

[B. W.]

Interesting, B. W. Now I can add, "false prophet" to my list of Armstrong's cultlike beliefs.

funny how i missed this. but then again, it is as i figured.

H W Armstrong had control issues and a need to be worshiped as a big shot to feed his damaged ego. Very sad and tragic. The damage he did to so many people is well documented. Jesus did say you will know them by their fruit. Armstrong's fruit is not good.

Being under a domineering form of controlling authority oft feels good because it makes a person feel validated, worthy, important so they attain their sense of worth from the domineering controller. These domineering controllers control by means of the group. They use the group dynamics to control. One let's down they group and then shame and guilt form the kicks in. In other words, a domineering controller are master manipulators.

If one tries to point out error, then one first shamed by the group and if this fails to bring them back in line, they are brought before group leaders for what I call an inquisition of brow beating and what one needs to do to regain good standing. it is tragic people subject themselves to this kind of thing.

Methods like this are defined as the deeds of the Nicolaitans mentioned in Revelation 2:6 which God's hates. Think about it...
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[jenna]

Interesting, B. W. Now I can add, "false prophet" to my list of Armstrong's cultlike beliefs.

funny how i missed this. but then again, it is as i figured.

H W Armstrong had control issues and a need to be worshiped as a big shot to feed his damaged ego. Very sad and tragic. The damage he did to so many people is well documented. Jesus did say you will know them by their fruit. Armstrong's fruit is not good.

Being under a domineering form of controlling authority oft feels good because it makes a person feel validated, worthy, important so they attain their sense of worth from the domineering controller. These domineering controllers control by means of the group. They use the group dynamics to control. One let's down they group and then shame and guilt form the kicks in. In other words, a domineering controller are master manipulators.

If one tries to point out error, then one first shamed by the group and if this fails to bring them back in line, they are brought before group leaders for what I call an inquisition of brow beating and what one needs to do to regain good standing. it is tragic people subject themselves to this kind of thing.

Methods like this are defined as the deeds of the Nicolaitans mentioned in Revelation 2:6 which God's hates. Think about it...
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-
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actually, the deeds of the Nicolaitans can be found here: http://www.theopedia.com/nicolaitans and has nothing to do with what you mentioned above. You say Armstrong had control issues and a need to be worshipped. Tell me, did you ever meet him face to face, or get to know him personally, so you can actually say this as fact, or just hearsay?

[jenna]

a man may be naturally good, but even the self-righteousness of a man like Job, is like a filthy rag to God. The ONLY righteousness that is truly good is the righteousness of God, imparted to us by God. as the BIBLE says (not me), "for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." which means if we love God, we do what He says! disobeying the commandments means we do not love Him! now i am not saying that we live a sinless life, that is impossible. but when we do sin, we ask forgiveness and keep striving forward. Jesus said plainly "IF THOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS." ( Matthew 19:16-17 ) how much plainer can it be? these are the words of God, not some interpretation. now i am asking you a question. are you trying to imply that Christians are not required to keep the law?

First, the text you quoted in Matthew 19, is a specific answer that Jesus gave to a specific question, by one specific person. Jesus knew the man's heart. Keep reading past the verses you pulled out of context, and the reason Jesus answered that way, becomes clear.

so what you are trying to say here is that Jesus meant His answer for one person, and one person only? So His responses are not meant for us today, and we should ignore what He says, since they were not meant for us? If i am reading this correctly, you are claiming that He was answering the man according to his folly, but He was not serious about what He said to him?

And if I'm to answer your question, I need you to be more specific. That way we're not talking past each other, if we have different meanings of words.

I'm not avoiding, I just need you to be more specific please.

1) define law, in the context you're asking.

the 10 commandments.

And

2) are Christians required to keep the law, for what? Salvation?

And you still haven't answered what you meant by what I asked you in my last post. I'm trying not to make assumptions, so I'm asking for clarification.

yes, i mean for salvation. what else would i mean here? and as for your other question, it means just what it says. How can we have true faith in something if we cannot even agree what true faith means? the reason why Christ died was for our sins to be wiped clean. Our past sins. Then we place our faith and trust in Him, to guide us into living the way He would want us to live.

well I answered you Rick, ball in your court.

[RickD]

a man may be naturally good, but even the self-righteousness of a man like Job, is like a filthy rag to God. The ONLY righteousness that is truly good is the righteousness of God, imparted to us by God. as the BIBLE says (not me), "for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." which means if we love God, we do what He says! disobeying the commandments means we do not love Him! now i am not saying that we live a sinless life, that is impossible. but when we do sin, we ask forgiveness and keep striving forward. Jesus said plainly "IF THOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS." ( Matthew 19:16-17 ) how much plainer can it be? these are the words of God, not some interpretation. now i am asking you a question. are you trying to imply that Christians are not required to keep the law?

First, the text you quoted in Matthew 19, is a specific answer that Jesus gave to a specific question, by one specific person. Jesus knew the man's heart. Keep reading past the verses you pulled out of context, and the reason Jesus answered that way, becomes clear.

so what you are trying to say here is that Jesus meant His answer for one person, and one person only? So His responses are not meant for us today, and we should ignore what He says, since they were not meant for us? If i am reading this correctly, you are claiming that He was answering the man according to his folly, but He was not serious about what He said to him?

And if I'm to answer your question, I need you to be more specific. That way we're not talking past each other, if we have different meanings of words.

I'm not avoiding, I just need you to be more specific please.

1) define law, in the context you're asking.

the 10 commandments.

And

2) are Christians required to keep the law, for what? Salvation?

And you still haven't answered what you meant by what I asked you in my last post. I'm trying not to make assumptions, so I'm asking for clarification.

yes, i mean for salvation. what else would i mean here? and as for your other question, it means just what it says. How can we have true faith in something if we cannot even agree what true faith means? the reason why Christ died was for our sins to be wiped clean. Our past sins. Then we place our faith and trust in Him, to guide us into living the way He would want us to live.

well I answered you Rick, ball in your court.

Jenna,

Nobody was ever saved by following the law. The 10 commandments weren't given as a means of following to gain eternal life. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your argument from scripture that shows that following OT law, gave one salvation.

[jenna]

a man may be naturally good, but even the self-righteousness of a man like Job, is like a filthy rag to God. The ONLY righteousness that is truly good is the righteousness of God, imparted to us by God. as the BIBLE says (not me), "for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." which means if we love God, we do what He says! disobeying the commandments means we do not love Him! now i am not saying that we live a sinless life, that is impossible. but when we do sin, we ask forgiveness and keep striving forward. Jesus said plainly "IF THOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS." ( Matthew 19:16-17 ) how much plainer can it be? these are the words of God, not some interpretation. now i am asking you a question. are you trying to imply that Christians are not required to keep the law?

First, the text you quoted in Matthew 19, is a specific answer that Jesus gave to a specific question, by one specific person. Jesus knew the man's heart. Keep reading past the verses you pulled out of context, and the reason Jesus answered that way, becomes clear.

so what you are trying to say here is that Jesus meant His answer for one person, and one person only? So His responses are not meant for us today, and we should ignore what He says, since they were not meant for us? If i am reading this correctly, you are claiming that He was answering the man according to his folly, but He was not serious about what He said to him?

And if I'm to answer your question, I need you to be more specific. That way we're not talking past each other, if we have different meanings of words.

I'm not avoiding, I just need you to be more specific please.

1) define law, in the context you're asking.

the 10 commandments.

And

2) are Christians required to keep the law, for what? Salvation?

And you still haven't answered what you meant by what I asked you in my last post. I'm trying not to make assumptions, so I'm asking for clarification.

yes, i mean for salvation. what else would i mean here? and as for your other question, it means just what it says. How can we have true faith in something if we cannot even agree what true faith means? the reason why Christ died was for our sins to be wiped clean. Our past sins. Then we place our faith and trust in Him, to guide us into living the way He would want us to live.

well I answered you Rick, ball in your court.

Jenna,

Nobody was ever saved by following the law. The 10 commandments weren't given as a means of following to gain eternal life. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your argument from scripture that shows that following OT law, gave one salvation.

I already did, please see above. Matthew 19:16-17. And I gave an answer to your statement also, that Christ was only speaking to that particular man, not to us. Do you really think Christ did not mean this for all of us? Is His word not meant for us today?

[RickD]

so what you are trying to say here is that Jesus meant His answer for one person, and one person only? So His responses are not meant for us today, and we should ignore what He says, since they were not meant for us? If i am reading this correctly, you are claiming that He was answering the man according to his folly, but He was not serious about what He said to him?

And if I'm to answer your question, I need you to be more specific. That way we're not talking past each other, if we have different meanings of words.

I'm not avoiding, I just need you to be more specific please.

1) define law, in the context you're asking.

the 10 commandments.

And

2) are Christians required to keep the law, for what? Salvation?

And you still haven't answered what you meant by what I asked you in my last post. I'm trying not to make assumptions, so I'm asking for clarification.

yes, i mean for salvation. what else would i mean here? and as for your other question, it means just what it says. How can we have true faith in something if we cannot even agree what true faith means? the reason why Christ died was for our sins to be wiped clean. Our past sins. Then we place our faith and trust in Him, to guide us into living the way He would want us to live.

well I answered you Rick, ball in your court.

Jenna,

Nobody was ever saved by following the law. The 10 commandments weren't given as a means of following to gain eternal life. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your argument from scripture that shows that following OT law, gave one salvation.

I already did, please see above. Matthew 19:16-17. And I gave an answer to your statement also, that Christ was only speaking to that particular man, not to us. Do you really think Christ did not mean this for all of us? Is His word not meant for us today?

Please reread the passage of the rich young ruler again, and keep it in its proper context.

[jenna]

so what you are trying to say here is that Jesus meant His answer for one person, and one person only? So His responses are not meant for us today, and we should ignore what He says, since they were not meant for us? If i am reading this correctly, you are claiming that He was answering the man according to his folly, but He was not serious about what He said to him?




the 10 commandments.

yes, i mean for salvation. what else would i mean here? and as for your other question, it means just what it says. How can we have true faith in something if we cannot even agree what true faith means? the reason why Christ died was for our sins to be wiped clean. Our past sins. Then we place our faith and trust in Him, to guide us into living the way He would want us to live.

well I answered you Rick, ball in your court.

Jenna,

Nobody was ever saved by following the law. The 10 commandments weren't given as a means of following to gain eternal life. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your argument from scripture that shows that following OT law, gave one salvation.

I already did, please see above. Matthew 19:16-17. And I gave an answer to your statement also, that Christ was only speaking to that particular man, not to us. Do you really think Christ did not mean this for all of us? Is His word not meant for us today?

Please reread the passage of the rich young ruler again, and keep it in its proper context.

i have read it, several times, and I am keeping it in context. Again i ask, do you not think that Christ was speaking for everyone? Do you think He wasnt serious? Why would He say this to one person, and not mean it for everyone. Christ's words are for all of us.

[RickD]

well I answered you Rick, ball in your court.

Jenna,

Nobody was ever saved by following the law. The 10 commandments weren't given as a means of following to gain eternal life. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your argument from scripture that shows that following OT law, gave one salvation.

I already did, please see above. Matthew 19:16-17. And I gave an answer to your statement also, that Christ was only speaking to that particular man, not to us. Do you really think Christ did not mean this for all of us? Is His word not meant for us today?

Please reread the passage of the rich young ruler again, and keep it in its proper context.

i have read it, several times, and I am keeping it in context. Again i ask, do you not think that Christ was speaking for everyone? Do you think He wasnt serious? Why would He say this to one person, and not mean it for everyone. Christ's words are for all of us.

Here's a good article explaining the story of the rich young ruler:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotque ... ent=safari
Thoughts?

[jenna]

Jenna,

Nobody was ever saved by following the law. The 10 commandments weren't given as a means of following to gain eternal life. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your argument from scripture that shows that following OT law, gave one salvation.

I already did, please see above. Matthew 19:16-17. And I gave an answer to your statement also, that Christ was only speaking to that particular man, not to us. Do you really think Christ did not mean this for all of us? Is His word not meant for us today?

Please reread the passage of the rich young ruler again, and keep it in its proper context.

i have read it, several times, and I am keeping it in context. Again i ask, do you not think that Christ was speaking for everyone? Do you think He wasnt serious? Why would He say this to one person, and not mean it for everyone. Christ's words are for all of us.

Here's a good article explaining the story of the rich young ruler:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotque ... ent=safari
Thoughts?

no, we are not saved by works, but by grace. that is true. HOWEVER, God is not going to give that gift to those who do not obey Him. The young ruler was actually not keeping all the commandments, since he put the love of his things above the love of God. in essence, he idolized them first. Christ wanted him to put aside worldly things, and focus on obeying God. Many things make it nearly impossible to keep the commandments, our sinful nature being first and foremost. However, if we can focus on God and put our faith in Him totally, we can receive the gift He has for us. While we may slip up occasionally, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens us".

[RickD]

I already did, please see above. Matthew 19:16-17. And I gave an answer to your statement also, that Christ was only speaking to that particular man, not to us. Do you really think Christ did not mean this for all of us? Is His word not meant for us today?

Please reread the passage of the rich young ruler again, and keep it in its proper context.

i have read it, several times, and I am keeping it in context. Again i ask, do you not think that Christ was speaking for everyone? Do you think He wasnt serious? Why would He say this to one person, and not mean it for everyone. Christ's words are for all of us.

Here's a good article explaining the story of the rich young ruler:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotque ... ent=safari
Thoughts?

no, we are not saved by works, but by grace. that is true. HOWEVER, God is not going to give that gift to those who do not obey Him. The young ruler was actually not keeping all the commandments, since he put the love of his things above the love of God. in essence, he idolized them first. Christ wanted him to put aside worldly things, and focus on obeying God. Many things make it nearly impossible to keep the commandments, our sinful nature being first and foremost. However, if we can focus on God and put our faith in Him totally, we can receive the gift He has for us. While we may slip up occasionally, we "can do all things through Christ who strengthens us".

Jenna,

I'm not sure how you cannot see the contradiction in what you're saying. On one hand, you said that we're saved by obeying the commandments. And on the other hand you say we are saved by grace. It can't be both. By definition, Grace is unmerited. If we obtain salvation by following the law, then it wouldn't be by grace.

Which one is it? Unmerited grace, or wages earned by works?

[Philip]

Rick: Jenna,

I'm not sure how you cannot see the contradiction in what you're saying. On one hand, you said that we're saved by obeying the commandments. And on the other hand you say we are saved by grace. It can't be both. By definition, Grace is unmerited. If we obtain salvation by following the law, then it wouldn't be by grace.

Which one is it? Unmerited grace, or wages earned by works?

Further, Christians SIN! How could they not? Scripture is filled with God's servants who have done all manner of unthinkable sins. David and Moses murdered. Peter denied. Etc. Some we know to be Christians are exceptionally difficult people - and not nearly as typically pleasant or nice as many unbelievers are. How many Mormons and JWs are about as nice a people as you'd ever want to meet? Are we to believe that the average Christian is any more moral or caring than many such unbelievers? Are Christians' WORKS so far superior? Of course not! What is the ONLY difference? Why is one saved, the other not? By first doing this and that, faithfully keeping all of certain works? How about that big list of works apparent in the saved thief on the cross? At what point is one saved - after doing ___________, ___________, __________, ______, etc., etc? What is the criteria? What is the ONLY way to salvation? Faith in and commitment to Jesus! Period! So, if the criteria for salvation is ONLY faith, then why would one believe maintaining that faith has anything to do with works? What does Paul say about Who both began and who will COMPLETE one's salvation? And how could Paul have faith that those he is addressing would see the Lord one day? Because of their perfect obedience and ability to not sin???!!!

Philippians 1:6!