Understanding the Trinity

[B. W.]

John 1:3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

Unrelated to the converastion, but as an aside, this is one of those passages that vexes me to no end. I cannot for the life of me decide if ο γεγονεν is the end of sentence or if it is the beginning of the next. Should it be, "all things were created through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being which has come into being. In Him was life . . ."; or should it be, "all thinsg were created through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being. That which comes into being in Him was life . . ."

Most translators prefer the first because, frankly, it's easier to make sense of. But I can't get the second reading out of my head. The latter feels a lot more like John's normal mode of thought. Take, for instance, the popular John 3:16. Here's the relevant portion:

• πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον

See ὁ πιστεύων followed by the εἰς αὐτὸν ? That's the exact same stucture as in 1:3c-4a. Granted we have εἰς rather than εν, but there is such a large amount of semantic overlap between those two words they may as well be parallel in structure. On the other hand, you do have verses like Joh 14:2a, which says:

• ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ τοῦ πατρός μου μοναὶ πολλαί εἰσιν

So here, the ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ is the same structure as 1:4a -- the sentence starts with ἐν, is followed by the object, then the subject, and then the verb. I can see precedents for both views.

I'm going to have a converastion with my friend Tom, who did doctoral work in linguistics, to ask him what kind of tools might be helpful for coming to some sort of resolution on this. I still lean towards the minority view, not only because it just "feels" more Johannine, but because I also think it gives us a better balance of the verse itself. Notice the contrast:

• παντα δι αυτου εγενετο
  και
  χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν

That looks pretty convincing to me. Adding the extra ο γεγονεν throws off the balance. So taken, we could paraphrase the translation just a bit to bring out the strength of it as something like

• Everything came into being through Him.
  Absolutely nothing came into being apart from Him.

For non-Greek readers, I assume the parallelism is easier to see with such a translation. Of course, the problem here is that while this is so much easier, you've now made 1:4 much more difficult: "That which came into being in Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

Anyway, carry on with your regularly scheduled program.

Yes, this verses vexes me too: John 1:3 παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

John writes in a certain style. How you worded it here to read: Everything came into being through Him. Absolutely nothing came into being apart from Him

Makes sense as to what John was saying...


Jac, can you describe the use of the words - ην ο λογος - used in John 1:1?

John 1:1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος ...

In this case could - ην ο - and or - ην προς - contain a hint of the phrase - I AM - added in?

For example reading something like this:

In the beginning was (I AM) the Word, and the Word was (face to face) God and God was the word ...

Or something like that?

Also the use of the Greek word Logos used be 1st century Hebrew would it have contained more in meaning in kinship with the Hebrew word translated wisdom used for example in Proverbs 8:12-31?

If so, then verse three world make sense in light of Proverbs 8:31 as that theme is in chapter one of John.

What do you think?
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[bbyrd009]

In the beginning was (I AM) the Word, and the Word was (face to face) God and God was the word ...

Hasn't God also said that He was, and that He will be? So this seems to diminish the meaning of "Understand I AM," wadr, if the "AM" is made a title instead of being seen as emphatic; wherein "Am" would work just fine.

[bbyrd009]

jenna -- It would be a Great improvement if "009" Could say things that could be understood Period. Trying to have a conversation with him that makes sense is nearly impossible.

You women are just a little slow to understand bbyrd009. I have no problem understanding what he says.

oh good! Crochet, i have found our translator!

RickD. -- ya, Sure you understand 009 -- Remember -- You were surprised that I could make head or tails out of what he was saying

jenna -- your sense of humor is refreshing. As you're probably aware of -- I've Tried to get down to bare basic facts of what salvation is and he even gets into his 'psycho-babble' over That.

Did you find my attempt at explaining the trinity in regards To salvation? I'm not trying to come across as an 'expert' of any sort, but simply sharing how salvation is made possible By the Godhead. My daughter and I got onto this subject the other evening. There are those who feel that salvation Necessitates the acceptance Of the trinity. But it's 'the other way around'. Without the Godhead, there would be no salvation. Each part Of the Godhead has a necessary/ important part Of making salvation Possible.

nice. Can't disagree. Even a Muslim would be agreeable to this; which i believe is the rub, if i am not mistaken.

[crochet1949]

In the beginning was (I AM) the Word, and the Word was (face to face) God and God was the word ...

Hasn't God also said that He was, and that He will be? So this seems to diminish the meaning of "Understand I AM," wadr, if the "AM" is made a title instead of being seen as emphatic; wherein "Am" would work just fine.

In the Old Testament, God referred to Himself " I AM " -- With All Due Respect -- since God is referring to Himself as such -- I'm certainly Not going to adjust it. 'I AM' works just fine.

[crochet1949]

jenna -- It would be a Great improvement if "009" Could say things that could be understood Period. Trying to have a conversation with him that makes sense is nearly impossible.

You women are just a little slow to understand bbyrd009. I have no problem understanding what he says.

oh good! Crochet, i have found our translator!

RickD. -- ya, Sure you understand 009 -- Remember -- You were surprised that I could make head or tails out of what he was saying

jenna -- your sense of humor is refreshing. As you're probably aware of -- I've Tried to get down to bare basic facts of what salvation is and he even gets into his 'psycho-babble' over That.

Did you find my attempt at explaining the trinity in regards To salvation? I'm not trying to come across as an 'expert' of any sort, but simply sharing how salvation is made possible By the Godhead. My daughter and I got onto this subject the other evening. There are those who feel that salvation Necessitates the acceptance Of the trinity. But it's 'the other way around'. Without the Godhead, there would be no salvation. Each part Of the Godhead has a necessary/ important part Of making salvation Possible.

nice. Can't disagree. Even a Muslim would be agreeable to this; which i believe is the rub, if i am not mistaken.

Unless You are Muslim -- Why do you bring up Muslims -- there's no 'rub' intended. Depending, of course, on what You mean by the 'rub'.

The Godhead = God the Father / Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

While Jesus Christ was here on earth -- He prayed to His Father. That was showing a 'mystery' -- That of Jesus was God incarnate / God in the flesh. Some things are beyond our human understanding -- which is really how it Should be. God is Spirit -- as a Spirit -- He Can dwell with each believer in our heart. In the form of the Holy Spirit. Which is why the body of a born-again believer is referred to as the 'temple of the Holy Spirit'. Thus -- the Godhead

[bbyrd009]

In the beginning was (I AM) the Word, and the Word was (face to face) God and God was the word ...

Hasn't God also said that He was, and that He will be? So this seems to diminish the meaning of "Understand I AM," wadr, if the "AM" is made a title instead of being seen as emphatic; wherein "Am" would work just fine.

In the Old Testament, God referred to Himself " I AM " -- With All Due Respect -- since God is referring to Himself as such -- I'm certainly Not going to adjust it. 'I AM' works just fine.

hey, i don't blame you one bit, and "I AM" works fine for me, too, as a title, ok; but God also referred to Him"self" other ways, too. I might suggest that one reflect upon the contexts when that was said, and also have some understanding of when God did also say "I was" and "I will be," "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End," where neither "a" or "m" is capitalized, iow, and look at the other "I ams," where the "a" is not even capitalized, and then go from there. If you are even led to seek that way. If not, it is no biggie to me, and i will even tell you that i AM a club of one where this "AM" thing is concerned, lol; at least it appears that i still AM. "Understand I AM" means that you must understand "I AM" however the Spirit reveals that to you.

[bbyrd009]

You women are just a little slow to understand bbyrd009. I have no problem understanding what he says.

oh good! Crochet, i have found our translator!

RickD. -- ya, Sure you understand 009 -- Remember -- You were surprised that I could make head or tails out of what he was saying

jenna -- your sense of humor is refreshing. As you're probably aware of -- I've Tried to get down to bare basic facts of what salvation is and he even gets into his 'psycho-babble' over That.

Did you find my attempt at explaining the trinity in regards To salvation? I'm not trying to come across as an 'expert' of any sort, but simply sharing how salvation is made possible By the Godhead. My daughter and I got onto this subject the other evening. There are those who feel that salvation Necessitates the acceptance Of the trinity. But it's 'the other way around'. Without the Godhead, there would be no salvation. Each part Of the Godhead has a necessary/ important part Of making salvation Possible.

nice. Can't disagree. Even a Muslim would be agreeable to this; which i believe is the rub, if i am not mistaken.

Unless You are Muslim -- Why do you bring up Muslims -- there's no 'rub' intended.

i bring up Muslims because a prevailing Christian pov is that they are all lost, even though they satisfy the requirements of the Bible, and since they do not hold with the common conception of Trinity, even if they would also accept a Trinitarian who manifested Christ--if that is even possible, i don't know--as a brother, the rub becomes apparent in the condemnation of a nation whose Book requires that an adherent "follow Christ or be doomed" (in one translation of "the Heifer;" et al), and the rub also becomes intended, when it is shown that Christ Himself does not testify to this Trinity concept, and in fact testifies quite a bit to the contrary, like, almost every time He opens His mouth, but regardless, the point being Trinity is hardly a settled issue, even among Christians, who are also being rubbed, yet Trinity is harnessed to divide and exclude other believers, even if the symbology does not present to you that way because you have a good heart.

[Byblos]

oh good! Crochet, i have found our translator!

RickD. -- ya, Sure you understand 009 -- Remember -- You were surprised that I could make head or tails out of what he was saying

jenna -- your sense of humor is refreshing. As you're probably aware of -- I've Tried to get down to bare basic facts of what salvation is and he even gets into his 'psycho-babble' over That.

Did you find my attempt at explaining the trinity in regards To salvation? I'm not trying to come across as an 'expert' of any sort, but simply sharing how salvation is made possible By the Godhead. My daughter and I got onto this subject the other evening. There are those who feel that salvation Necessitates the acceptance Of the trinity. But it's 'the other way around'. Without the Godhead, there would be no salvation. Each part Of the Godhead has a necessary/ important part Of making salvation Possible.

nice. Can't disagree. Even a Muslim would be agreeable to this; which i believe is the rub, if i am not mistaken.

Unless You are Muslim -- Why do you bring up Muslims -- there's no 'rub' intended.

i bring up Muslims because a prevailing Christian pov is that they are all lost, even though they satisfy the requirements of the Bible, and since they do not hold with the common conception of Trinity, even if they would also accept a Trinitarian who manifested Christ--if that is even possible, i don't know--as a brother, the rub becomes apparent in the condemnation of a nation whose Book requires that an adherent "follow Christ or be doomed" (in one translation of "the Heifer;" et al), and the rub also becomes intended, when it is shown that Christ Himself does not testify to this Trinity concept, and in fact testifies quite a bit to the contrary, like, almost every time He opens His mouth, but regardless, the point being Trinity is hardly a settled issue, even among Christians, who are also being rubbed, yet Trinity is harnessed to divide and exclude other believers, even if the symbology does not present to you that way because you have a good heart.

Seriously, it is high time you put up or shut up. Present your case biblically as well as logically against the trinity and let's see what you've got. And don't give me this mumbo-jumbo talk about you accepting the trinity as it is clear that you don't.

[bbyrd009]

RickD. -- ya, Sure you understand 009 -- Remember -- You were surprised that I could make head or tails out of what he was saying

jenna -- your sense of humor is refreshing. As you're probably aware of -- I've Tried to get down to bare basic facts of what salvation is and he even gets into his 'psycho-babble' over That.

Did you find my attempt at explaining the trinity in regards To salvation? I'm not trying to come across as an 'expert' of any sort, but simply sharing how salvation is made possible By the Godhead. My daughter and I got onto this subject the other evening. There are those who feel that salvation Necessitates the acceptance Of the trinity. But it's 'the other way around'. Without the Godhead, there would be no salvation. Each part Of the Godhead has a necessary/ important part Of making salvation Possible.

nice. Can't disagree. Even a Muslim would be agreeable to this; which i believe is the rub, if i am not mistaken.

Unless You are Muslim -- Why do you bring up Muslims -- there's no 'rub' intended.

i bring up Muslims because a prevailing Christian pov is that they are all lost, even though they satisfy the requirements of the Bible, and since they do not hold with the common conception of Trinity, even if they would also accept a Trinitarian who manifested Christ--if that is even possible, i don't know--as a brother, the rub becomes apparent in the condemnation of a nation whose Book requires that an adherent "follow Christ or be doomed" (in one translation of "the Heifer;" et al), and the rub also becomes intended, when it is shown that Christ Himself does not testify to this Trinity concept, and in fact testifies quite a bit to the contrary, like, almost every time He opens His mouth, but regardless, the point being Trinity is hardly a settled issue, even among Christians, who are also being rubbed, yet Trinity is harnessed to divide and exclude other believers, even if the symbology does not present to you that way because you have a good heart.

Seriously, it is high time you put up or shut up. Present your case biblically as well as logically against the trinity and let's see what you've got. And don't give me this mumbo-jumbo talk about you accepting the trinity as it is clear that you don't.

seriously, go find a minion to order around, as the ball is in your court, to somehow attempt some fabricated, ridiculous denial of the harness of the trinity doctrine, when the fruit is only too apparent, my brother. Unless you can witness some other, good-tasting fruit? That my understanding of trinity is not already providing? ty

[bbyrd009]

RickD. -- ya, Sure you understand 009 -- Remember -- You were surprised that I could make head or tails out of what he was saying

jenna -- your sense of humor is refreshing. As you're probably aware of -- I've Tried to get down to bare basic facts of what salvation is and he even gets into his 'psycho-babble' over That.

Did you find my attempt at explaining the trinity in regards To salvation? I'm not trying to come across as an 'expert' of any sort, but simply sharing how salvation is made possible By the Godhead. My daughter and I got onto this subject the other evening. There are those who feel that salvation Necessitates the acceptance Of the trinity. But it's 'the other way around'. Without the Godhead, there would be no salvation. Each part Of the Godhead has a necessary/ important part Of making salvation Possible.

nice. Can't disagree. Even a Muslim would be agreeable to this; which i believe is the rub, if i am not mistaken.

Unless You are Muslim -- Why do you bring up Muslims -- there's no 'rub' intended.

i bring up Muslims because a prevailing Christian pov is that they are all lost, even though they satisfy the requirements of the Bible, and since they do not hold with the common conception of Trinity, even if they would also accept a Trinitarian who manifested Christ--if that is even possible, i don't know--as a brother, the rub becomes apparent in the condemnation of a nation whose Book requires that an adherent "follow Christ or be doomed" (in one translation of "the Heifer;" et al), and the rub also becomes intended, when it is shown that Christ Himself does not testify to this Trinity concept, and in fact testifies quite a bit to the contrary, like, almost every time He opens His mouth, but regardless, the point being Trinity is hardly a settled issue, even among Christians, who are also being rubbed, yet Trinity is harnessed to divide and exclude other believers, even if the symbology does not present to you that way because you have a good heart.

Seriously, it is high time you put up or shut up. Present your case biblically as well as logically against the trinity and let's see what you've got. And don't give me this mumbo-jumbo talk about you accepting the trinity as it is clear that you don't.

so now, put up or shut up yourself; what is your reaction to the trinity that you pledge allegiance to, that i mentioned, and even showed you a flag for, those people in Wash DC that are not even a legal part of your country, what is your response to that, since you haven't bothered yet, and since that is the real one, the one with a flag of its own, the one you pledge allegiance to, yes? Present me your Biblical case for that one lol.

"Why do you call Me good? No one is good except the Father."

[Byblos]

Seriously, it is high time you put up or shut up. Present your case biblically as well as logically against the trinity and let's see what you've got. And don't give me this mumbo-jumbo talk about you accepting the trinity as it is clear that you don't.

so now, put up or shut up yourself; what is your reaction to the trinity that you pledge allegiance to, that i mentioned, and even showed you a flag for, those people in Wash DC that are not even a legal part of your country, what is your response to that, since you haven't bothered yet, and since that is the real one, the one with a flag of its own, the one you pledge allegiance to, yes? Present me your Biblical case for that one lol.

"Why do you call Me good? No one is good except the Father."

I honestly can't tell if you're a very smart child or an arrogant fool. You came to our house, you need to play by our rules so you first. Enough with talking out of both sides of your mouth.

[RickD]

bbyrd009 wrote:
Why do you call Me good? No one is good except the Father."

Not sure which translation you got that from, but as you can see, not a single translation here, uses "father" in place of "God". Why would you change God to Father?

[bbyrd009]

Seriously, it is high time you put up or shut up. Present your case biblically as well as logically against the trinity and let's see what you've got. And don't give me this mumbo-jumbo talk about you accepting the trinity as it is clear that you don't.

so now, put up or shut up yourself; what is your reaction to the trinity that you pledge allegiance to, that i mentioned, and even showed you a flag for, those people in Wash DC that are not even a legal part of your country, what is your response to that, since you haven't bothered yet, and since that is the real one, the one with a flag of its own, the one you pledge allegiance to, yes? Present me your Biblical case for that one lol.

"Why do you call Me good? No one is good except the Father."

I honestly can't tell if you're a very smart child or an arrogant fool. You came to our house, you need to play by our rules so you first. Enough with talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Byblos, the subject is done, ok, and if Christ Himself does not persuade you, by His own mouth, then understand that i am not interested in continuing to manifest the only fruit of trinity doctrine that we have been able to discern on this thread--at least so far--with you, ok? I honestly can't tell if you are an idiot, or just truly deluded here (did i do that right?), imagining that there is no fruit, and then, when that becomes manifestly ridiculous, still neglecting to provide witness of any? Or acknowledge that we are manifesting its fruit right now?

So you can correctly be characterized as denying the fruit of an imaginary doctrine, while simultaneously pledging allegiance to another trinity that you enjoy the fruits of every day, but refuse to acknowledge the nature of, also, and would not see even if i brought the flag here again, and led you to links that verify that Washington DC is not legally a part of the US, which might seem like a different subject, but one is manifesting the other, the spiritual misunderstanding, developed for the express purpose of dividing and excluding, manifests the physical trinity, which is also not of this world, that you also pledge allegiance to.

And you have the nerve to characterize me as talking from both sides of my mouth? Do you even know what that means, or did it just sound good as a putdown in your mind? How has my story changed here? If you want to accept some trinity concept that your seeking of God has led you to, i have no problem with that, whether i get it or not. But that is not sufficient, is it? For the obvious reason that the point of the doctrine is to find and label an "us," and a "them," the same as your attempt to characterize everyone here as being behind you somehow, "our house," when they are not, and make me to be a "them," any way you can.

I honestly can't tell if you are a psychopath, or a scared little punk, desperate to justify your position with rhetoric, since the most obvious and simple test for judgement here, the fruit, has now failed you these many times. Why not get real about the earthly trinity, at least we would be talking about something real, that some actual fruit might come out of, rather than about your back-door doctrine to make yourself God?

[bbyrd009]

bbyrd009 wrote:
Why do you call Me good? No one is good except the Father."

Not sure which translation you got that from, but as you can see, not a single translation here, uses "father" in place of "God". Why would you change God to Father?

ah, good point, i was paraphrasing from memory. So that one then

[Byblos]

Seriously, it is high time you put up or shut up. Present your case biblically as well as logically against the trinity and let's see what you've got. And don't give me this mumbo-jumbo talk about you accepting the trinity as it is clear that you don't.

so now, put up or shut up yourself; what is your reaction to the trinity that you pledge allegiance to, that i mentioned, and even showed you a flag for, those people in Wash DC that are not even a legal part of your country, what is your response to that, since you haven't bothered yet, and since that is the real one, the one with a flag of its own, the one you pledge allegiance to, yes? Present me your Biblical case for that one lol.

"Why do you call Me good? No one is good except the Father."

I honestly can't tell if you're a very smart child or an arrogant fool. You came to our house, you need to play by our rules so you first. Enough with talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Byblos, the subject is done, ok, and if Christ Himself does not persuade you, by His own mouth, then understand that i am not interested in continuing to manifest the only fruit of trinity doctrine that we have been able to discern on this thread--at least so far--with you, ok? I honestly can't tell if you are an idiot, or just truly deluded here (did i do that right?), imagining that there is no fruit, and then, when that becomes manifestly ridiculous, still neglecting to provide witness of any? Or acknowledge that we are manifesting its fruit right now?

So you can correctly be characterized as denying the fruit of an imaginary doctrine, while simultaneously pledging allegiance to another trinity that you enjoy the fruits of every day, but refuse to acknowledge the nature of, also, and would not see even if i brought the flag here again, and led you to links that verify that Washington DC is not legally a part of the US, which might seem like a different subject, but one is manifesting the other, the spiritual misunderstanding, developed for the express purpose of dividing and excluding, manifests the physical trinity, which is also not of this world, that you also pledge allegiance to.

And you have the nerve to characterize me as talking from both sides of my mouth? Do you even know what that means, or did it just sound good as a putdown in your mind? How has my story changed here? If you want to accept some trinity concept that your seeking of God has led you to, i have no problem with that, whether i get it or not. But that is not sufficient, is it? For the obvious reason that the point of the doctrine is to find and label an "us," and a "them," the same as your attempt to characterize everyone here as being behind you somehow, "our house," when they are not, and make me to be a "them," any way you can.

I honestly can't tell if you are a psychopath, or a scared little punk, desperate to justify your position with rhetoric, since the most obvious and simple test for judgement here, the fruit, has now failed you these many times. Why not get real about the earthly trinity, at least we would be talking about something real, that some actual fruit might come out of, rather than about your back-door doctrine to make yourself God?

In other words you got nothin. Got it, thanks.