Understanding the Trinity

[jenna]

ok, you say that there is one being split into three parts. explain to me how does 1/3 of one being separate itself from itself, change form and composition, die, and then resurrect itself and then rejoin itself? and, in Genesis does God talk to Himself? and again, if this is not what you mean by 3-in-1, then you believe in polytheism.

[RickD]

ok, you say that there is one being split into three parts. explain to me how does 1/3 of one being separate itself from itself, change form and composition, die, and then resurrect itself and then rejoin itself? and, in Genesis does God talk to Himself? and again, if this is not what you mean by 3-in-1, then you believe in polytheism.

Glad to see you're paying attention.

[jenna]

ok, you say that there is one being split into three parts. explain to me how does 1/3 of one being separate itself from itself, change form and composition, die, and then resurrect itself and then rejoin itself? and, in Genesis does God talk to Himself? and again, if this is not what you mean by 3-in-1, then you believe in polytheism.

Glad to see you're paying attention.

yeah, real nice explanation.

[Philip]

Jac: And when we look at God, we realize that there are some beings (God) that are more than one Person.

No - perhaps a niggling point, but there is only ONE rational being that has more than one person within it: God! There is no other rational being that consists of multiple persons. But yes, very simple: God is one - ONE Being / three Persons / all Persons equally God.

[Jac3510]

ok, you say that there is one being split into three parts. explain to me how does 1/3 of one being separate itself from itself, change form and composition, die, and then resurrect itself and then rejoin itself? and, in Genesis does God talk to Himself? and again, if this is not what you mean by 3-in-1, then you believe in polytheism.

No, God is not split into parts. This is one of those fundamental things that is hard to grasp but when you get it makes you say, "Oh, duh. Obviously." I will say you are right that those people who view the Trinity as three parts that make up one God, do, in fact, believe in polytheism. And we have a LOT of polytheists in the church today. But that's where they need to be corrected. The Bible doesn't teach polytheism. It teaches monotheism. There is only one God. There are no parts of that God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not "parts" of Him, as if the Father + the Son + the Spirit make up God. Even without understanding the underlying philosophy, one way you can see that is that Trinitarians (rightly) claim that each Person of the Godhead is fully God and also say that all are equal to one another. Now if there is only one God, and if all are fully God, then if God were three parts (one part Father, one part Son, one part Holy Spirit), then none of the three Persons would be fully God. They would only be the part of God that they are. Imagine a cake. A cake is made up of eggs, wheat, sugar, milk, things like that. None of those ingredients are fully the cake. They are only their part of the cake, and the cake itself is dependent on (contingent upon) those parts to actually exist. If God were made up of three Persons, then none of those persons would be God Himself, and God Himself would be dependent on (contingent upon) those parts to actually exist.

So, again, no. God is not one being split into three parts. Trinitarians are monotheists, not polytheists.

[Jac3510]

Jac: And when we look at God, we realize that there are some beings (God) that are more than one Person.

No - perhaps a niggling point, but there is only ONE rational being that has more than one person within it: God! There is no other rational being that consists of multiple persons. But yes, very simple: God is one - ONE Being / three Persons / all Persons equally God.

Correct, Phil, but as much as we're already throwing at jenna, I didn't think it would be helpful to get into that at the same time. I could be wrong on that matter, of course.

[jenna]

ok, you say that there is one being split into three parts. explain to me how does 1/3 of one being separate itself from itself, change form and composition, die, and then resurrect itself and then rejoin itself? and, in Genesis does God talk to Himself? and again, if this is not what you mean by 3-in-1, then you believe in polytheism.

No, God is not split into parts. This is one of those fundamental things that is hard to grasp but when you get it makes you say, "Oh, duh. Obviously." I will say you are right that those people who view the Trinity as three parts that make up one God, do, in fact, believe in polytheism. And we have a LOT of polytheists in the church today. But that's where they need to be corrected. The Bible doesn't teach polytheism. It teaches monotheism. There is only one God. There are no parts of that God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not "parts" of Him, as if the Father + the Son + the Spirit make up God. Even without understanding the underlying philosophy, one way you can see that is that Trinitarians (rightly) claim that each Person of the Godhead is fully God and also say that all are equal to one another. Now if there is only one God, and if all are fully God, then if God were three parts (one part Father, one part Son, one part Holy Spirit), then none of the three Persons would be fully God. They would only be the part of God that they are. Imagine a cake. A cake is made up of eggs, wheat, sugar, milk, things like that. None of those ingredients are fully the cake. They are only their part of the cake, and the cake itself is dependent on (contingent upon) those parts to actually exist. If God were made up of three Persons, then none of those persons would be God Himself, and God Himself would be dependent on (contingent upon) those parts to actually exist.

So, again, no. God is not one being split into three parts. Trinitarians are monotheists, not polytheists.

you say that none of the ingredients are fully cake, but the cake itself is contigent on all the ingredients to actually be a cake. please try again, because that is a horrible analogy. or, unless i read it correctly, God cannot be God unless all three parts are there. so again my as yet unanswered question stands. How can God split Himself into three parts, completely change form, make Himself mortal, allow Himself to die, forsake Himself, then resurrect Himself, and return to sit at the right hand of Himself? And again, does God talk to Himself?

PLEASE ANSWER THESE POINTS. ty

[Philip]

Jenna: God cannot be God unless all three parts are there.

Rather, God WOULDN'T be God unless all three PERSONS are there. Because God is what He is. He's not ONLY any one PERSON, He's not the "Dynamic Duo" - He's a Trinity of Three Persons, and these three Persons fellowship relationally within the same God. We can't understand that easily because such is beyond our own experiences and design. I see a huge problem here is to define God and His attributes, and what forms He can take on / manifest Himself that are IN ADDITION to what He already IS, AS COMPARED TO HUMANS (as they are) /HUMAN abilities.

[Philip]

Jenna: PLEASE ANSWER THESE POINTS. ty

Jac quickly pulls out his Gatlin Gun - er, I mean keyboard.

[jenna]

Jenna: God cannot be God unless all three parts are there.

Rather, God WOULDN'T be God unless all three PERSONS are there. Because God is what He is. He's not ONLY any one PERSON, He's not the "Dynamic Duo" - He's a Trinity of Three Persons, and these three Persons fellowship relationally within the same God. We can't understand that easily because such is beyond our own experiences and design. I see a huge problem here is to define God and His attributes, and what forms He can take on / manifest Himself that are IN ADDITION to what He already IS, AS COMPARED TO HUMANS (as they are) /HUMAN abilities.

if He would not be God unless all 3 persons are there, then while Christ was on earth then God wasnt God? remember, He had separated Himself so 1/3 of Himself was not there.

[jenna]

Jenna: PLEASE ANSWER THESE POINTS. ty

Jac quickly pulls out his Gatlin Gun - er, I mean keyboard.

hey if he can answer these questions then i am all for it.

[Jac3510]

ok, you say that there is one being split into three parts. explain to me how does 1/3 of one being separate itself from itself, change form and composition, die, and then resurrect itself and then rejoin itself? and, in Genesis does God talk to Himself? and again, if this is not what you mean by 3-in-1, then you believe in polytheism.

No, God is not split into parts. This is one of those fundamental things that is hard to grasp but when you get it makes you say, "Oh, duh. Obviously." I will say you are right that those people who view the Trinity as three parts that make up one God, do, in fact, believe in polytheism. And we have a LOT of polytheists in the church today. But that's where they need to be corrected. The Bible doesn't teach polytheism. It teaches monotheism. There is only one God. There are no parts of that God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not "parts" of Him, as if the Father + the Son + the Spirit make up God. Even without understanding the underlying philosophy, one way you can see that is that Trinitarians (rightly) claim that each Person of the Godhead is fully God and also say that all are equal to one another. Now if there is only one God, and if all are fully God, then if God were three parts (one part Father, one part Son, one part Holy Spirit), then none of the three Persons would be fully God. They would only be the part of God that they are. Imagine a cake. A cake is made up of eggs, wheat, sugar, milk, things like that. None of those ingredients are fully the cake. They are only their part of the cake, and the cake itself is dependent on (contingent upon) those parts to actually exist. If God were made up of three Persons, then none of those persons would be God Himself, and God Himself would be dependent on (contingent upon) those parts to actually exist.

So, again, no. God is not one being split into three parts. Trinitarians are monotheists, not polytheists.

you say that none of the ingredients are fully cake, but the cake itself is contigent on all the ingredients to actually be a cake. please try again, because that is a horrible analogy. or, unless i read it correctly, God cannot be God unless all three parts are there. so again my as yet unanswered question stands. How can God split Himself into three parts, completely change form, make Himself mortal, allow Himself to die, forsake Himself, then resurrect Himself, and return to sit at the right hand of Himself? And again, does God talk to Himself?

PLEASE ANSWER THESE POINTS. ty

No, the analogy is good. You have not read me correctly.

Let's use a simpler analogy than the cake. Take a peanut butter and jelly sandwich (you're welcome, Rick). You have three basic ingredients: peanut butter, jelly, and bread.

Are any of those three items a pb&j sandwich? No.
Are any two of the three a pb&j sandwich? No.
Are all three of those, not "assembled," a pb&j sandwich (i.e., a jar of peanut butter, a jar of jelly, and slices of bread)? No.

In order to have a pb&j sandwich, you have to have all three and put together in the correct way. When you have met those conditions, you have a pb&j sandwich. So the sandwich is three parts, put together in a certain way. That means the existence of the sandwich is dependent on at least FIVE things:

1. the peanut butter
2. the jelly
3. the bread
4. all put together
5. in the correct way

Lose any one of those five and you no longer have a sandwich.

All that clear?

Now, compare that to the Trinity. A common, but WRONG, way to view the Trinity is to imagine each Person as part of the Trinity. So, on this view, the Father might be like the peanut butter, the Son like the jelly, and the Holy Spirit like the bread. All three, taken together and properly related to each other, "make up" the Trinity. But on this view, if you lose any of the five parts (the Father, the Son, the Spirit, all taken together, and related in a certain fashion), then you no longer have the Trinity.

This view of the Trinity is, again, WRONG. It makes God into a contingent being. It further entails atheism (for the same reason I argue your polytheism entails atheism).

The thing you need to grasp--or accept before you grasp it, at least--is that the Trinity denies that there are ANY parts of God. So your statement, "unless i read it correctly, God cannot be God unless all three parts are there" is NOT correct. You have NOT read us correctly. You have it exactly backwards. For if there were any parts, then God would not exist. Again, this is the very essence of the doctrine of the Trinity: no parts in God. No parts of any kind whatsoever. If your God has parts, not only is it not the God of the Trinity, then it is not the God the church has always said existed. If your God has any parts of any kind, then He is not the creator of the world, and thus is not the God of Genesis 1. In other words, if your God has any parts of any kind, He is not the biblical God. Perhaps you have the god of another religion, but if your God has parts, He is not the God of Christianity or Judaism.

From there, your other questions are very simple:

How can God split Himself into three parts

He does not. God has no parts, nor could He split Himself into parts if He wanted to.

completely change form

God does not change form, not could He if He wanted to. He is immutable (changeless).

make Himself mortal, allow Himself to die

God does not make Himself mortal, nor could He if He wanted to. He is eternal.

forsake Himself

God does not forsake Himself, nor could He, any more than you can forsake yourself. Moreover, that would require a change in God, which does cannot happen.

then resurrect Himself

He doesn't.

and return to sit at the right hand of Himself?

He doesn't.

And again, does God talk to Himself?

He doesn't.

None of these questions have anything to do with the Trinity. They have to do with the Incarnation. And the short answer to those is that the divine nature does none of those things. The man Jesus Christ does in by His human nature, not His divine nature. And this is going to turn out to be a much more serious problem for you, because when you get into this, you'll find that your theology requires you deny that Jesus is God.

[B. W.]

Jenna, please read Jac's post on pages 38-39 of this thread again...

Jenna you asked:

if He would not be God unless all 3 persons are there, then while Christ was on earth then God wasnt God? remember, He had separated Himself so 1/3 of Himself was not there.

While back I mentioned bible verses that explained and has God actually telling that there is NONE LIKE HIMSELF...

What do you think that means?

God is self existent. That is what the bible reveals about God as well as reveals the He is the Living God...and this explains the biblical truth mentioned in Philippians 2:5,6,7,8,9,10,11 and Isaiah 7:14, Isa 9:6, and Isa 43:10

I wrote this Thread entitled, The Old Testament Concept of God, on this forum showing how Trinitarian the Old Testament is... suggest you review it when you can as it might help answer your objection...
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[jenna]

none of this has explained anything, especially on what exactly the trinity is to you. you say God is 3-in-1, but have yet to explain in any clear manner exactly how this is. i have heard nothing but analogies, like apples, oranges, and now a pbj sandwich? really? how am i supposed to understand something that you claim is fundamental as the trinity, when you (or anyone here) have not explained it in a manner able to be understood?

they really should make a smiley for pulling your hair out, which would be appropriate, for my side and probably your side as well.

[Kurieuo]

Jenna, I wonder if you've watched any of the videos I previously linked to?