Understanding the Trinity

[RickD]

Jenna,

This thread is about understanding the Trinity.

You are still arguing against the Trinity, even though you don't understand what the doctrine is.

You'd be much better off asking questions about things you don't understand, than arguing against it. It makes you look like you have no desire to learn, and that you're only here to argue.

There is nobody on this forum who is better at answering questions, and explaining the Trinity, than Jac. You'd do well to just pick his brain, and learn from him.

Or,

You can ignore me, and continue arguing against something that you very clearly do not understand.

And I thought I was slow...

yes, i have been ignoring you for the most part. with comments like the one above, who can blame me? you have done nothing but make comments like these for awhile now.

You are catching on then. Yes, I've been making jokes like that for a while now. I insulted you, crochet, and myself, all in one joke. I'd say that's pretty impressive.

Someone needs to put her big girl pants on!

[jenna]

Jenna,

This thread is about understanding the Trinity.

You are still arguing against the Trinity, even though you don't understand what the doctrine is.

You'd be much better off asking questions about things you don't understand, than arguing against it. It makes you look like you have no desire to learn, and that you're only here to argue.

There is nobody on this forum who is better at answering questions, and explaining the Trinity, than Jac. You'd do well to just pick his brain, and learn from him.

Or,

You can ignore me, and continue arguing against something that you very clearly do not understand.

And I thought I was slow...

yes, i have been ignoring you for the most part. with comments like the one above, who can blame me? you have done nothing but make comments like these for awhile now.

You are catching on then. Yes, I've been making jokes like that for a while now. I insulted you, crochet, and myself, all in one joke. I'd say that's pretty impressive.

Someone needs to put her big girl pants on!

oh they are on. which is why i have been ignoring you. otherwise you might see my other half, which isnt so nice.

[RickD]

Jenna,

This thread is about understanding the Trinity.

You are still arguing against the Trinity, even though you don't understand what the doctrine is.

You'd be much better off asking questions about things you don't understand, than arguing against it. It makes you look like you have no desire to learn, and that you're only here to argue.

There is nobody on this forum who is better at answering questions, and explaining the Trinity, than Jac. You'd do well to just pick his brain, and learn from him.

Or,

You can ignore me, and continue arguing against something that you very clearly do not understand.

And I thought I was slow...

yes, i have been ignoring you for the most part. with comments like the one above, who can blame me? you have done nothing but make comments like these for awhile now.

You are catching on then. Yes, I've been making jokes like that for a while now. I insulted you, crochet, and myself, all in one joke. I'd say that's pretty impressive.

Someone needs to put her big girl pants on!

oh they are on. which is why i have been ignoring you. otherwise you might see my other half, which isnt so nice.

I find that hard to believe. You seem like such a nice person, despite what everyone has been saying about you!

[crochet1949]

Hi Jenna

I'm still here -- (never mind Them) the Link that RickD included a page or two back really Is good. If We can continue sharing? Questions / comments ......

[jenna]

Hi Jenna

I'm still here -- (never mind Them) the Link that RickD included a page or two back really Is good. If We can continue sharing? Questions / comments ......

yes we can.

[melanie]

Hey jenna
I see you have have been around on the forum for awhile, but I don't think we've crossed paths. I have been totally lazy in only reading the last few pages of this topic but I think, and correct me if I'm wrong but you don't adhere to the trinity doctrine?
I am also of this belief.
This does not stem from any religious doctrination, it is a very personal spiritual belief.
I believe it is a flawed understanding of the Godhead, one that is rooted in misinterpreted gospel.
I think any honest study of scripture and Jewish tradition shows that the Holy Spirit is quite literally the spirit of God. I am not a JW, I believe Jesus is the Son of God and God incarnate. The desire to incorporate a trinity into the duality of the Godhead is based on extremely questionable scripture. Perhaps the most questionable recent translations that exists, if not a flat out forgery.
Backflips and triple pikes of the theological nature that exist around the verse "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one, and this addition to scripture is quite striking, for those with the eyes to see.
As stated I personally am of no religion. I love God and Jesus and couldn't theologically care from a religious standpoint whether the trinity is true or otherwise. That may sound flippant, but where the heart lies so does faith. My faith is unwavering in my Father and my Saviour.
If I'm wrong, then God set me straight.
But in my totally religiously unbiased interpretation of scripture I wholeheartedly believe it is a flawed doctrine.
Biblilcally unsound.
Nothing I have studied extensively nor internally prayed upon has led me to believe otherwise and this has been a journey for several years.
I would love to hear your standpoint, perhaps in my earnest I have misunderstood your position, nevertheless I'm sure there is some interesting discussion!!

[jenna]

Hey jenna
I see you have have been around on the forum for awhile, but I don't think we've crossed paths. I have been totally lazy in only reading the last few pages of this topic but I think, and correct me if I'm wrong but you don't adhere to the trinity doctrine?
I am also of this belief.
This does not stem from any religious doctrination, it is a very personal spiritual belief.
I believe it is a flawed understanding of the Godhead, one that is rooted in misinterpreted gospel.
I think any honest study of scripture and Jewish tradition shows that the Holy Spirit is quite literally the spirit of God. I am not a JW, I believe Jesus is the Son of God and God incarnate. The desire to incorporate a trinity into the duality of the Godhead is based on extremely questionable scripture. Perhaps the most questionable recent translations that exists, if not a flat out forgery.
Backflips and triple pikes of the theological nature that exist around the verse "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one, and this addition to scripture is quite striking, for those with the eyes to see.
As stated I personally am of no religion. I love God and Jesus and couldn't theologically care from a religious standpoint whether the trinity is true or otherwise. That may sound flippant, but where the heart lies so does faith. My faith is unwavering in my Father and my Saviour.
If I'm wrong, then God set me straight.
But in my totally religiously unbiased interpretation of scripture I wholeheartedly believe it is a flawed doctrine.
Biblilcally unsound.
Nothing I have studied extensively nor internally prayed upon has led me to believe otherwise and this has been a journey for several years.
I would love to hear your standpoint, perhaps in my earnest I have misunderstood your position, nevertheless I'm sure there is some interesting discussion!!

hello Melanie, nice to meet you
and i agree 100% with your statement. the Godhead is a duality, not a trinity. the doctrine is biblically unsound, and one cannot use that verse you stated above, since it is not in the original manuscripts. you have not misunderstood my position at all, and there is good discussion from both sides, even though i have been told this thread is not the place to argue against it.

[melanie]

A thread 'understanding the trinity'
I couldn't think of a more concise thread to discuss such matters
The viability of understanding lies in its authenticity as far as I see it!
I think the mistake lies within the doctrination that if anyone questions such then the bully stance takes effect, 'questioning salvation, questioning Faith', heretic, 'shut them up' which is entirely unnecessary.
It's a fear based response
As far as see it The Holy Spirit is in us, the corner stone of our faith. Powerful, personal, loving and God. Not some force, or a wind, but God. In His magnificence, His trandsendence, His omnipresence. Not an 'it' far from it.
The very essence and presence of Our Father in His ability to project himself, the Light of Christ across domain and dominion.

[RickD]

A thread 'understanding the trinity'
I couldn't think of a more concise thread to discuss such matters
The viability of understanding lies in its authenticity as far as I see it!
I think the mistake lies within the doctrination that if anyone questions such then the bully stance takes effect, 'questioning salvation, questioning Faith', heretic, 'shut them up' which is entirely unnecessary.
It's a fear based response
As far as see it The Holy Spirit is in us, the corner stone of our faith. Powerful, personal, loving and God. Not some force, or a wind, but God. In His magnificence, His trandsendence, His omnipresence. Not an 'it' far from it.
The very essence and presence of Our Father in His ability to project himself, the Light of Christ across domain and dominion.

So you do believe the Holy Spirit is God, but you don't believe in the Trinity?

[melanie]

Rick, we have had this discussion before

[Jac3510]

For those interested and who don't mind shelling out 4USD, here's a whole book written in defense of 1 John 5:7. It really is a shame to me how quickly people will give this up. The whole Alexandrian text type is so problematic, but people just read "the oldest/best manuscripts lack these verses" and just assume that they know what any of it means.

[melanie]

I believe the Holy Spirit IS God.
What we believe is not so different at all.
I don't think the Holy Spirit is a third seperate 'person'. There are numerous versus stating the Throne of God, Jesus sitting at the right hand. Nowhere does it depict, ever, the Holy Spirit's heavenly place. Not at the left hand of God, in fact with all the imagery we have of the Angels and Jesus, nowhere does it depict the place of the Holy Spirit.
I believe the Holy Spirit is God.
His light, His power, His omnipresence, His ability to be Alpha and Omega, in all places, at all times. Not by way of another third person, but by the very nature of His brilliance.

[melanie]

Jac, to be fair, there are many books that very thoroughly despute this verse.
Depending on ones own personal beliefs it is easy to find 'the book' that suits your own agenda. To be fair you must agree, that this is the most hotly debated New Testament verse. In all my studies, which I claim no care either way, but from an intellectual standpoint, it is obvious to me this verse is a forgery.
I believe it is the most honest conclusion, from the facts.
I'm not going to post countless links. Anyone with the mind to search, will work it out easily for themselves.
The mind is a fascinating thing, willing to hold onto and believe anything that we hold dear. That might sound like a self depleting statement and in many regards it is. The atheists trump card but it's also their own downfall. It's all based on belief, interpretation and opinion.
I believe by burden of my own truth and scripture that there is indeed a God and His Son, that abide in the spiritual realm and rule the universe as a Godhead who bless us with their presence by way of the Holy Spirit. An unnatural and unworldly phenomenon by way of their greatness. To be with all, at all times in all manner. For that is omnipresence and omnipotence.

[Jac3510]

I don't think there's anything to do with "fairness" here, mel. The Comma came up, most people dismiss it out of hand, and so I provided a (cheap) book length treatment of the subject if anyone is or ever happens to be interested in a proper defense so that they can have a more informed view on the subject. Sure, I could have provided a dozen links for and against it, but what's the point? No reason to post links against because it is (sadly) presumed to be inauthentic by most, and most links in defense are on popular websites that don't do a very good job dealing with the real issues. So, as I said, "fairness" doesn't enter into the conversation as far as I can see.

[Philip]

I'm not getting something that seems obvious: IF God the Father is God, and Jesus is God - are these the SAME PERSON? Was God out in the wilderness talking to Himself? IS there not both a Father AND a Son? Does Jesus not relentlessly speak of Another, One He calls His FATHER, but also One MORE, the Holy Spirit? It seems that many arguing against the Trinity of three Persons have no problem at all with a "Dynamic Duo" - two Persons which are clearly God. But all of these same attributes and pronouns are used of the Holy Spirit that only make sense if that is ALSO a Person. It's hard to see what the huge objection is, to multiple Persons of the One God - as most that recognize Jesus as God have no problem with TWO Persons? But not Three - with the same qualifying attributes and verbiage used.

But to accept all THREE (Father, Son and Spirit) as God, yet to reject the notion of a Trinity - I just find that weird.

And let's not argue over approach, tone, humor (or attempts at it), let's try to stick to the facts and the issues.