Understanding the Trinity

[crochet1949]

For Melanie -- a couple of questions -- who impregnated Mary so she could give birth to Jesus Christ. And who convicts a person of their sins and who seals the spirit of the believer until they are united with Christ.

[RickD]

I'm not getting something that seems obvious: IF God the Father is God, and Jesus is God - are these the SAME PERSON? Was God out in the wilderness talking to Himself? IS there not both a Father AND a Son? Does Jesus not relentlessly speak of Another, One He calls His FATHER, but also One MORE, the Holy Spirit? It seems that many arguing against the Trinity of three Persons have no problem at all with a "Dynamic Duo" - two Persons which are clearly God. But all of these same attributes and pronouns are used of the Holy Spirit that only make sense if that is ALSO a Person. It's hard to see what the huge objection is, to multiple Persons of the One God - as most that recognize Jesus as God have no problem with TWO Persons? But not Three - with the same qualifying attributes and verbiage used.

But to accept all THREE (Father, Son and Spirit) as God, yet to reject the notion of a Trinity - I just find that weird.

And let's not argue over approach, tone, humor (or attempts at it), let's try to stick to the facts and the issues.

At least in Mel's case, I think the disagreement lies in the specific verbiage used in the doctrine. If I can speak for Mel, I think she's saying that the father, son, and Holy Spirit, are all God. It's just that she doesn't see the Holy Spirit as a person, so she can't hold to the Trinity of persons.

Is that accurate, Mel?

[B. W.]

I wrote this on this thread for you a few minutes ago and copied it here for you who can't get it:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 80#p218380

We have been discussing the Trinity many times on this forum.

This Thread's subject: The Old Testament concept of God...

...is about how Trinitarian the the language of the OT really is.

There is a concept in Hebrew grammar of the Majestic Plural Noun verses a normal Collective plural nouns. The Hebrew word often used in the Ot for God is Elohim used around 2,600 times in about 2,247 verses in the MT (Masoretic Text) of the OT.

Elohim is a Plural collective noun. In Exodus 32:1,23 (gods not god), Deut 4:7,28 (gods not god) and Ex 23:33 Elohim is translated as a plural noun as gods... in the English text.

Let me spare you a deep grammar study singular noun modifiers as I will lose half the folks reading this.

Basically, the Hebraic thought came up with the idea of a Majestic Plural noun when referring to God. I am not going to get in the controversies if Majestic Plural nouns are really still Collective Plural nouns here. Most places of study adhere to the Majestic Plural noun when Elohim is applied to God so as keep intact the Shema - Deut 6:4.

The Majestic Plural Noun if you look at is still a plural noun. It expresses that God (Deut 6:4) is The Majestic Plural One. In other words, he is unlike anything we can fully grasp - that there is truly none like him whom we can compare.

This thread I wrote deals with that there is truly none like him whom we can compare because the OT mention the Majestic Plural Nature of God is indeed in three persons yet an Echad - United One - meaning of one essence. He appeared in the OT like that to humanity.

For example: God's oneness of being has wisdom of person to create, the wisdom to create is expressed to carry out from the will of wisdom to create is Person, and the wisdom of creating that establishes the wisdom to create is Person.

How and why person? Answer God is the living God would be his answer because all aspects of is deep will, knowledge, wisdom, proceeds from him as expression of Persons to carry out the will.

Jesus always said He does the will of the Father and that He proceeded and came forth from the Father and then to return. The Holy Spirit for that matter too. Both unique person's are the expression of the Godhead ie HaElohim. Not gods but a Majestic Plural One - one Living God.

I suggest folks go back and re-read this thread as I show this from the OT. Jesus appeared many times as the Malek YHWH ie Word doing YHWH and the Holy Spirit as the one who empowers and establishes the will, purpose, plan etc...

In Exodus 24:9,10,11 it states that the leaders of Israel saw God and ate and drank before him, yet in Exodus 24:12,13,14 tells us LORD ie YHWH said to Moses go up higher on the mountain and receive the Law and Commandments (Responsibilities). Yet, there leaders saw God as well eating and drinking in his presence and God spared them.

How can that be if what God later said in Exodus 33:20 - no mortal can see God in his full presence of being and live? Answer, he reveals himself as he is in truth, in manner of His Living Theophany of being. Then in Exodus 34:6 we have three time the word LORD used. Lord in all caps in the bible is YHWH so three times YHWH is mentioned. YHWH passed before Moses and proclaimed: YHWH the YHWH God is...

In Exodus 34:5 you have YHWH descending in cloud and standing before Moses and proclaimed the name (Character) of YHWH saying what verse 6-7 mentions describing attributes of God's character so that Exodus 33:22,23 could happen.

No one could behold the Lord's full being the fullness of the oneness of his panyim (presences - faces) however, He is what?

Merciful and gracious, overflowing/abounding with goodness and truth, etc...

God's oneness of being is overflowing/abounding with goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, yet just, and will exercise judgment on the guilty as that is the nature of God's Love.

So proceeds out, overflows/abounds from God is Person whom does the task of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, justice, and judgment. As well as from God is person whom overflows/abounds establishes and empowers the task of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiveness, justice, and judgment Because God is Living, who He is carries out what he does in Person - living - to carry out the hidden will of goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiving, justice, and judgment.

One God - in three persons - is how he revealed himself through the OT and NT and today. God does not lie, he revealed himself so we can look upon him and live and not die in our sins. So we too can go about declaring his name...in our words, actions, thoughts... to a lost world because He outflows goodness and truth, mercy, grace, forgiveness, justice, and judgment and He, the Holy Spirit lives within a Christian busy cleaning house, establishing and empowering us so we will declare forth His name defeating the darkness around us.

This is deep I know because there are no human words that are adequate to express the Majestic Plurality of God's Being.

So Elohim when the word pertains to God himself was written in the Majestic Plural noun form for a reason that so many people refuse to acknowledge because they busy themselves reducing God to a state of common oneness a one chair, or one animal and not as He himself revealed himself in Truth as - There None Like Him...

Ponder this:

Deut 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our Elohim (plural), YHWH is one (Echad-unity) !"

[Nicki]

Hi Jenna

I'm still here -- (never mind Them) the Link that RickD included a page or two back really Is good. If We can continue sharing? Questions / comments ......

yes we can.

What did you think about the idea that Jesus took on a human nature in addition to his divine nature, and that's how he became a human being and died?

[jenna]

Hi Jenna

I'm still here -- (never mind Them) the Link that RickD included a page or two back really Is good. If We can continue sharing? Questions / comments ......

yes we can.

What did you think about the idea that Jesus took on a human nature in addition to his divine nature, and that's how he became a human being and died?

i agree with that.

[crochet1949]

Yes, Jesus Christ Did take on a human nature -- but How did He get into this world in the 1st place?

[jenna]

Yes, Jesus Christ Did take on a human nature -- but How did He get into this world in the 1st place?

it was the power of God that made it possible for Mary to conceive Him while still a virgin.

[crochet1949]

Yes, Jesus Christ Did take on a human nature -- but How did He get into this world in the 1st place?

it was the power of God that made it possible for Mary to conceive Him while still a virgin.

Yes, the power of God working Through Who?

[jenna]

Yes, Jesus Christ Did take on a human nature -- but How did He get into this world in the 1st place?

it was the power of God that made it possible for Mary to conceive Him while still a virgin.

Yes, the power of God working Through Who?

i think you are wanting me to say through the holy spirit, but it is my belief that the holy spirit is the power of God.

[RickD]

Yes, Jesus Christ Did take on a human nature -- but How did He get into this world in the 1st place?

it was the power of God that made it possible for Mary to conceive Him while still a virgin.

Yes, the power of God working Through Who?

Mary.

[jenna]

Yes, Jesus Christ Did take on a human nature -- but How did He get into this world in the 1st place?

it was the power of God that made it possible for Mary to conceive Him while still a virgin.

Yes, the power of God working Through Who?

Mary.

yea, thanks for that answer, Jenna

[RickD]

Yes, Jesus Christ Did take on a human nature -- but How did He get into this world in the 1st place?

it was the power of God that made it possible for Mary to conceive Him while still a virgin.

Yes, the power of God working Through Who?

Mary.

yea, thanks for that answer, Jenna

Hey, give me some credit, I didn't use sarcasm.

[crochet1949]

Jenna -- let's go back to the Luke 1 passage -- the angel Gabriel approached Mary vs 35 "The angel answered , "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you."
Matthew 1:18 " This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child Through the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit was very much a part of that.

And He, the Holy Spirit, is the part of the Godhead that indwells each believer as to seal that person until they are united with Jesus Christ for eternity.

[jenna]

Jenna -- let's go back to the Luke 1 passage -- the angel Gabriel approached Mary vs 35 "The angel answered , "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you."
Matthew 1:18 " This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child Through the Holy Spirit."

The Holy Spirit was very much a part of that.

And He, the Holy Spirit, is the part of the Godhead that indwells each believer as to seal that person until they are united with Jesus Christ for eternity.

yes the holy spirit was a part of that, because as the verse says, the power of the Most High was what caused Mary to conceive. that is what the HS is. God's power.

[crochet1949]

So you Do believe in the Godhead consisting of God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.